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Old 19-05-2018, 11:13   #361
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I no longer have it, it is still on a previous boat. Pretty sure they weren’t 10 ga, might have been 12 ga, but most likely 14 ga. I don’t think it matters a lot, but larger gauge the better.
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Old 19-05-2018, 12:04   #362
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Richard,
The short answer is:
22 ga solid copper..
There are seven pieces (or various lengths), of 22 ga solid copper ("buss wire" / "telephone wire" / "ringer wire", etc.) all brought together and soldered to one piece (~ 4') of 12 ga stranded copper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta View Post
Hi Chip. I was looking at the pictures of the Kiss SSB this afternoon. Please could you tell me the AWG of those cables.

Regards
Richard
The long answer is:
It doesn't really matter....as you can make an artificial counterpoise yourself (that works better than the KISS), with a few pieces of scrap wire, of just about any random length (between 12' and 30'), of just about any gauge wire, that you find for free, or can buy cheap...


If you read the posts above (even just #348, the one right on the same page as yours) http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-56551-24.html

AND the details of testing the KISS
Re: KISS-SSB Counterpoise
https://www.ssca.org/forum/viewtopic...tart=75#p74444

If you have a look at all of what is posted here and on the SSCA site, you'll soon understand.






BTW, on a side note...
I can't believe this is still going on....
Antenna physics are same now as they were 75 - 100 years ago....and yes, while we do know (and understand) more now, physics is physics...and there is no such thing as a free lunch...
Translation: the advertised features of the "KISS" are really just BS...and have been proven wrong/misleading many years ago...
Yes, "anything" can work....it's just a matter of degree...







Fair winds..

John
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Old 20-05-2018, 10:23   #363
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Hi John, Thanks for that. Am I right in thinking that If I made a group of radials for myself using lengths of copper measured to the frequency lengths and I had one at my antenna's Resonant Frequency which is 10.8 MHz so as far as I remember the radial for that frequency is 7.39 Meters for a 1/4 wave, I should be ok.

Regards
Richard
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Old 20-05-2018, 10:50   #364
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta View Post
Hi John, Thanks for that. Am I right in thinking that If I made a group of radials for myself using lengths of copper measured to the frequency lengths and I had one at my antenna's [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Resonant Frequency which is 10.8 MHz so as far as I remember the radial for that frequency is 7.39 Meters for a 1/4 wave, I should be ok
When it comes to radials, the natural resonant frequency of your antenna doesn't matter. If you are trying for a good low-impedance radial, it should be cut for the frequency of operation. But it's complicated:
  • The electrical length of a radial will be influenced by surrounding conductive material, including the seawater on the other side of the hull, and by any zigs and zags in the radial route through the boat.
  • You will probably want to operate on multiple frequencies, so having multiple tuned radials is a good idea.
  • A single radial will give you a skewed radiation pattern, so a more radials running in different directions can help.

The good news is:
  • Your antenna tuner can compensate for non-ideal radials, just as it compensates for your non-ideal antenna.
  • With a backstay antenna you're going to get a skewed radiation pattern anyway.
  • If you can connect to a seawater ground via a through-hull, the radial tuning can be much more forgiving.
  • Whatever you do, within reason, will probably work OK. Example: the KISS. It's a bad radial system. but with a good tuner it generally works well enough.
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Old 20-05-2018, 11:20   #365
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Richard,
The short answer is, yes and no...well, sort of yes, in the narrow example you ask about, but that's not really what you are asking, is it??
{to be clear, if you were designing a single-band, resonant antenna system for 10.8mhz, then designing tuned/resonant radials (not "ground radials") for 10.8mhz (tuning them to 10.8mhz), would be good....but, I don't think you are attempting to design an antenna for 10.8mhz??
So...
So, in reality, it would best to design tuned/resonant radials for the actual freqs of use....and allow the remote tuner to adjust resonance of the antenna...but even this isn't really what you are going to accomplish...as you are not designing a resonant antenna system at all, especially on a sailboat! }

Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta View Post
Hi John, Thanks for that. Am I right in thinking that If I made a group of radials for myself using lengths of copper measured to the frequency lengths and I had one at my antenna's Resonant Frequency which is 10.8 MHz so as far as I remember the radial for that frequency is 7.39 Meters for a 1/4 wave, I should be ok.

Regards
Richard
The long answer is....well, it's rather long and involved, so I will just give you the highlights.

1) A "radial" is only resonant when it is not in contact with, or near-by to, "ground"....(or not nearby any other metallic structure, nearby any other wires, etc.).
2) Also, once you curve, twist, fold-back, bend, or coil this "radial", it's resonance changes..

So, once you place this "radial" in your bilge, lazarette, under deck or cabin sole, etc...then it is no longer resonant!!
So...
So, the answer could be "yes" in certain specific cases, but only if you've tuned/cut the radial for resonance after it is completely installed...
And, that's not really practical, as this resonance will change over time as more/less fuel, and/or water, is added/removed from your tanks...as slime/marine growth attaches to your hull, and then you clean it off...not to mention any stores/tools, etc. that you place on-board or move around, etc...

I think you see where I'm going here...
On almost all boats, there is little ability to guarantee any resonance in "radials"...but..
But, the good news is that it really will not matter much at all!
And, since you're not operating at 10.8mhz, the details are fairly moot...


3) The further answer is:
a) If you can use the sea water as your antenna ground (by connecting to the sea water with a direct, low-impedance, connection), you're going to be much better off!
b) and c)
If you cannot do this in "a", then getting as much conducting ground material (whether copper strapping or many, many radials) as close to your tuner's ground connection as possible, is good...
If you cannot do either "a", then using whatever large surface area metallic structure you have and whatever long metallic structures you have, and use these as your antenna ground....
(these include large metal tanks, pushpits, lifelines, toerails and rubrails, etc...but if toerails are aluminum be sure to attach into the metal, not just "on-top" of any alum anodizing...)

d) If you cannot do "a", "b", or "c"...then you can try throwing in some "radials"....
But, use as many as you can practically fit, and do not worry about their resonance at all (it will not matter, at all), one "radial" in your bilge is practically useless...(okay, not totally useless, but a waste of time/effort!)
{to be clear, "use many radials" is good...but this means as many as close to the tuner as possible....once they spread out and get more than 15' - 20' away their effectiveness is lessened...but, again, this is if you cannot do "a", "b", or "c"}


4) For clarity...
FYI....in actual practice, I recommend using some copper strapping / copper plate / copper flashing, directly near/adjacent to the tuner for a few feet around it, connected directly to the tuner's ground lug, no matter what approach you take ("a", "b" or "c")...and then attach your underwater ground, tanks, toerails, etc....and/or radial wires as best you can...




5) Now that I answered your question, perhaps you can tell me what you are trying to accomplish??
'Cuz, I'm confused...
You asked what gauge wire the KISS uses....and you got the answer (22ga) and the info that it doesn't matter what gauge...
And, now you ask about radials for a 10.8mhz antenna??

If you are trying to decide on an antenna ground for an HF system on-board, MF/HF-DSC-SSB-Radiotelephone (sometimes called "Marine SSB", by laypersons), then you will find the answers to your questions (and a WHOLE LOT MORE), in the stickies at the top of the Marine Electronics Page..
Have a look..

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-198305.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html


And, please read my post from yesterday....and read the links there...as these will also answer your questions, directly and specifically...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2635357



I hope this helps...

Fair winds.

John


P.S. Just to remind you....everything will work to some extent...even no ground system at all....
This is all a matter of degree....do you want a safe, reliable, easy-to-use, system, that works everytime, all the time?? How much time/effort can you devote to making this happen??
Can you spend an hour?? 2 hours?? (or do you need it done in 5 minutes??)

I think you see there is a LOT more to all of this...
But, in short....the answer is, no....you do NOT need to worry about radial resonance.
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Old 20-05-2018, 12:42   #366
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Hi John, Thank you for all the info. I will have a close look at all the information, links ect you have sent. I am in the process of building a 40ft Motor yacht that I purchased the full size plans for a couple of years ago, I have reached a stage with the hull I think would be a good time to install a antenna ground, ground plane, Counterpoise (just a few names for them) as at the stage I have no deck, cabins ect. I think this would be a good time to fit one with little or no obstructions so I'm trying to decide which one to fit and which antenna to go for. A couple of people had suggested a 1/a wave backstay antenna and 2 suggested a whip antenna. I have been offered a second hand Shakespeare SSB whip antenna. It's that one which has the Resonant Frequency of 10.8 MHz I mentioned. It is 7m in length. I have already passed the operator Certificate for Marine SSB so that bit is covered and of course the Yacht will get a licence when finished. Hope this helps shed a little light on things.

Regards
Richard
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Old 20-05-2018, 12:48   #367
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Guy on here had exact lengths to use. Made one 2 years ago from some 18 ga speaker wire I found. Seems to work pretty good. Installed mostly parallel to waterline a few inches above, which I read somewhere could help??
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Old 20-05-2018, 15:09   #368
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Richard,
Okay, now we're gettin' somewhere!

But, fyi, we're going to be drifting way off-topic...so, after this, should really post more questions on design/install of HF radio systems, including antenna ground, in the thread for that...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-198305.html


Or, just start a new thread with the exact topic / questions...



1) You mention a motor yacht and "backstay", so I assume some sort of trawler??

2) Whether you decide on a whip, or backstay, the antenna ground requirements are the same (or very, very close).

3) Yes, now does seem like a good time to install some copper strapping and underwater ground plate (Dynaplate, etc.)....
But, "where" to install a ground system, underwater ground plate, etc.??
Without knowing your boat, where the antenna(s) may be placed, where your remote tuner will be, etc., it's fairly difficult to tell you where/how to install the antenna ground...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta View Post
I am in the process of building a 40ft Motor yacht...
... I have reached a stage with the hull I think would be a good time to install a antenna ground, ground plane, Counterpoise (just a few names for them) as at the stage I have no deck, cabins ect. I think this would be a good time to fit one with little or no obstructions
For sailboats, it darn easy....Use a backstay antenna (or ropetenna, etc.), place the tuner aft, in a lazarette....run copper strapping to a underwater direct seawater connection / grounding plate / Dynaplate....and you're good to go!
But, not knowing your boat???

Hmmm??
That's something YOU are going to have to design...
Where is this "backstay" of yours going to be??
Where is there a locker / lazarette, for the tuner??
Is this lazarette/locker near where this "backstay" is??
Where is there a good location, within 5' to 8' of the tuner (closer the better) to install a underwater grounding plate?? (it needs to be underwater at all points of sail, but for a motor boat, it gets easier!)

Richard, I'm sure you'll get someone that will "tell you what to do" (there are plenty of them on-line), but few that will tell you that YOU need to do some design of your own (like where are the cabins?, where are the engines? where are the tanks? where are the other systems? etc. etc. etc...)
You're asking us to be quasi-naval architects, site-unseen, without any info on the boat at all...
That's a darn big ask...

Now, I'm not dodging your question, but just trying to say:
I don't know your boat, and have no idea how to answer your question...
But...

But, as you will see in the previously referenced threads:
--- use a total antenna length of 40' - 50' (or longer, if you wish to optimize for the lower freq bands)....not really possible with a whip, so use at least a 28' whip (35' whip if you can afford it)
--- place the tuner within 5' of the bottom of this antenna...
--- place the grounding plate within 5' of the tuner...
--- use 3" wide copper strap to connect between the tuner and underwater grounding plate...

--- if you wish to "build-in" some radials?? (not sure why, if you're going to use an underwater plate connected with a few feet of 3" wide copper strapping, they're not needed at all) You can run them from the tuner along the hull anywhere where there will not be other wiring or systems...



The previously referenced threads will tell you what to do here...
Have a look...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlanta View Post
...so I'm trying to decide which one to fit and which antenna to go for. A couple of people had suggested a 1/a wave backstay antenna and 2 suggested a whip antenna. I have been offered a second hand Shakespeare SSB whip antenna. It's that one which has the Resonant Frequency of 10.8 MHz I mentioned. It is 7m in length. I have already passed the operator Certificate for Marine SSB so that bit is covered and of course the Yacht will get a licence when finished. Hope this helps shed a little light on things.

Regards
Richard
In a nutshell...
---- Use as long of antenna as practical, especially over the next 3 - 4 years as the solar-cycle is bottoming-out in late 2019 / early 2020, and won't be back to our current fairly mediocre state until 2021/2022, and won't be great 'til a year or two after that...
---- With the factual info available (whether here, Sailmail, radio manufacturers, ARRL, etc.), please take advice from well-meaning other sailors with a grain of salt (yes, I am aware that makes me sound arrogant...sorry about that....but I'm just trying to help..)




Richard, I hope this has helped....
And again, this is a fairly specific topic....and is really far off from what's inside the KISS, so anything else would be best handled in another thread..

Fair winds..

John
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Old 08-10-2019, 15:35   #369
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Ahoy...its an old thread, but here goes.....I am looking to install this antennae.

Cruisers out there who use same, have you good/bad to say about the KISS-SSB?

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Old 08-10-2019, 16:31   #370
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Just start at post #1 and read. It's not hard !
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Old 08-10-2019, 18:58   #371
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Make your own and find out. Ain't that hard and you might save a few bucks.

https://briandphoto.net/KISS-SSB.html

and when you are done reading that, read this

https://briandphoto.net/docs/Seawate...GordonWest.pdf
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:14   #372
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

"...I am looking to install this antennae."


Just to be clear, the KISS is NOT an antenna! It is only a counterpoise system. For an antenna, you need to look elsewhere.


Good luck.
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Old 20-05-2020, 16:20   #373
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Lots of info to absorb on this issue, challenging for a gearhead like me....I started out on another thread, stumbled across the KISS ground plane, and ordered one. Then i started reading about how home made ones do as much, and cheaper....then all the back and forth, tech info, words, words....I feel fine having ordered one however. I did learn from all the rhetoric, tech data, etc. and have a much better idea of what it is about. The ground plane strap on my 40 year old boat has deteriorated and become separated; my intention now is to rejoin the bronze plate and the strap with some large diameter copper wire, in conjunction with the KISS. Is there any reason to keep a bonding wire from the mast away from the bronze plate and counterpoise/ground plane? Currently the mast, engine, fuel tank, bronze plate, and copper strap are all bonded together (except for the broken part).
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Old 20-05-2020, 16:51   #374
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

Actually, upon further research, the mast should be bonded to the bronze plate for lightning protection....so, I answered my own question....hope it helps someone else.
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Old 20-05-2020, 23:08   #375
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Re: The KISS SSB Counterpoise - Revealed ( with Pics )

I found that spending the bucks on a counterpoise and stringing it along behind the hull lining was the simplest, cheapest and quickest solution.

Does it work?

The previous boat was a steely with the entire hull available for grounding. The HF appears to work just as well on this FG boat with the counterpoise.
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