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Old 17-04-2020, 14:40   #1
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Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

We are on Vancouver Island, tied up in Victoria's inner harbour.

We have set up a used M-710 SSB, connected to an insulated backstay, AT-130 tuner and KISS counterpoise. It's all wired in, but nothing except the backstay is permanently installed.

I turn it on, get a lot of noise, but can't find a human voice.

Is there a continuous voice channel, like the VHF WX channel that I would be able to hear to test the receiver? Or is there a net that I could listen to here?

Thanks for the help and stay safe.
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Old 17-04-2020, 16:26   #2
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Do you have the capability to go into the ham bands? Or are you limited to the Marine Bands? One other option is to listen to the time signals of WWV on 5MHz, 10MHz, 15MHz, and 25MHz. Those might be programmed into the M710 already. If you have to dial them in, they use AM mode.
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Old 17-04-2020, 16:40   #3
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Hi Brian,

It seems to be limited to marine bands. I will try what you suggest.

Thanks
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Old 17-04-2020, 18:32   #4
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Check here for many west coast nets. You can always listen. Need appropriate licenses to transmit. Ham for those bands, ships and operator licenses for SSB (at least in USA). Canada similar, but I don't know specifics.

http://www.docksideradio.com/west_coast.htm
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Old 17-04-2020, 18:51   #5
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

I was at that spot for a year, it's really hard to pick up anything in any marina, but for some reason that spot seems to be especially bad.

Try picking up the time signals as brian suggested.
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Old 17-04-2020, 19:48   #6
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Dockside Radio says the M710 Channels 13-17 are the time broadcast CH14 (5MHz), CH15 (10MHz), and CH16 (15MHz). Do not know if this is valid info. If so, CH15 is very strong during the day and probably the best first choice.

M710 Channel Guide
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Old 17-04-2020, 23:39   #7
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

foojin,
The short answer is, yes...have a listen to the USCG HF broadcasts of NWS/NOAA Offshore weather....or WWV / WWVH...or some ham bands...

The long answer is....well, it's long....so, have a seat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by foojin View Post
We are on Vancouver Island, tied up in Victoria's inner harbour.

We have set up a used M-710 SSB, connected to an insulated backstay, AT-130 tuner and KISS counterpoise. It's all wired in, but nothing except the backstay is permanently installed.

I turn it on, get a lot of noise, but can't find a human voice.

Is there a continuous voice channel, like the VHF WX channel that I would be able to hear to test the receiver? Or is there a net that I could listen to here?

Thanks for the help and stay safe.
Foojin,

Fyi, all the answers to your questions are there in the stickies (and in the links in them) at the top of the page, and in the Youtube videos...have a look....


But, in brief:



1) Success in HF radio communications, whether on-board or on shore (whether maritime, ham, shortwave, etc.) is almost always controlled by three main criteria:

a) operator knowledge/skill/expertise....including knowledge of radiowave propagation (nature), RFI (man-made noise), and actual knowledge of how to properly use their radio (make proper adjustments, not just doing what the marketing guys hype), etc.

b) maximizing receive signal-to-noise ratio (S/N)....this is the ultimate goal (on all sides of the communications paths)!! {and this mostly means getting rid of the noise!)

c) antenna system design / installation (including the importance of distance of the antenna system, from any RFI generating devices)

[layperson sailors should spend some time learning these things above, just like they did for sail trim, navigation, anchoring/docking, diesel maintenance, head repair, etc.!!

If you want to start with the very basics of HF Radiowave Propagation...use these simple rules-of-thumb:

The higher the sun = the higher the freq used
The lower the sun (fyi, below the horizon is lower also) = the lower the freq used
The longer the distance = the higher the freq used
The shorter the distance = the lower the freq used


If you simply commit these basic rules to memory, and then watch the videos, you'll be ahead of 95% of your fellow cruisers! ]



2) Here is what I wrote here just this week (and actually have written and said these same / similar words now for decades):
~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
---1) No matter how much knowledge / experience someone has in "tech" and/or in "engineering", "communications", etc., there is a indisputable fact that those new to HF communications, particularly those new to the receiving of HF signals in our modern RFI-infested world, are surprised at how much "noise" (RFI) is present these days....but when they finally learn the basics (that I will outline immediately below), most see the light and find excellent / low-noise HF communications are not only possible, but quite typical!


---2) Here are the basics....Success in HF comms is almost exclusively determined by three important factors:


a) operator knowledge/skill/expertise....including knowledge of radiowave propagation (nature), RFI (man-made noise), and actual knowledge of how to properly use their radio (make proper adjustments, not just doing what the marketing guys hype), etc. [layperson sailors should spend some time learning these things, just like they did for sail trim, navigation, anchoring/docking, diesel maintenance, head repair, etc.!!]

b) maximizing receive signal-to-noise ratio (S/N)....this is the ultimate goal (on all sides of the communications paths)!! {and this mostly means getting rid of the noise!)

c) antenna system design / installation (including the importance of distance of the antenna system, from any RFI generating devices)



---3) In regards to "noisy" signals (too much noise in your receiver)....Much of the receive RFI in HF maritime (ham band and/or marine band) communications these days, is generated on board our own boats!!


{I've made note of many of the plethora of items that so many have on board, that generates / radiates RFI / "noise".....everything from automatic bilge-pump sensors, digital metering, etc....all the way to the obvious items like inverters, chargers, switch-mode power supplies, etc....have a look at the links in the reference "stickies" at the top of Cruiser's Forum Marine Electronics page, for a lot of details on RFI, etc.}

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-ssb-stuff-how-to-better-use-proeprly-install-ssb-and-troubleshoot-rfi-etc-133496.html

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/hf-ssb-radio-proper-installation-tips-techniques-etc-198305.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~
3) From Vancouver, you're about 700nm from NMC (USCG station in Pt. Reyes, CA), and you should be able to hear their SSB Voice Broadcasts of NWS/NOAA Offshore Waters Forecasts, four times per day...(except for days the human operators are training, these are all broadcast with "Iron Mike", a computer-simulated voice, and are easy to understand)


Have a listen on 4426khz (ITU ch. 424) and/or 8764khz (ITU ch. 816), at 0430z and 1030z...

And, listen to 8764khz (ITU ch. 816) and/or 13089khz (ITU ch. 1205), at 1630z and 2230z....

Here are some details...
https://www.weather.gov/marine/uscg_broadcasts


Have a look at this Youtube Playlist....
(at least the first 2 videos....especially the first video, where you'll hear/see what the USCG NWS/NOAA Offshore water forecasts sound like on the various freqs, from 6m 55s to the end of the video, and watch the whole video to see/hear some basic explanations of radiowave propagation and freq / channel choice)

"Maritime HF Comms"

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y



Please forgive the standard definition video quality (but, it's just a close-up of the radio, my fingers and narration)....and please understand that these videos are made by me alone, LIVE as it happens, in the real world, on-board a real offshore cruising boat, with no director, no script, no simulations...just like it happens for everyone on-board....so, there may be some rough edits, but heck they are FREE, and nobody is trying to sell you anything, so enjoy!

[note: these are the USCG working channels (and those they broadcast weather on), but these are not the channels they monitor / maintain a voice watch on...although they recommend calling them via HF-DSC, this isn't of course possible with a M-710, but you're in luck, as NMC is supposed to still maintain a 24/7/365 SSB Voice watch on four of the six int'l GMDSS SSB Voice calling freqs, 4125khz, 6215khz, 8291khz, and 12290khz...so, once you've established that you can easily copy their weather broadcasts (on their working channels), after that you can switch to one these other freqs and attempt to call them...]

Have a look here for more info:
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=cgcommsCall





4) Yes, you can try tuning in WWV from Colorado (male voice) and WWVH from Hawaii (female voice), on 5mhz, 10mhz, and 15mhz....and yes, these signals are there 24/7/365....(also 2.5mhz and from Colorado only on 20mhz as well)

But, most/many radios have these programmed-in as AM mode channels, and as such you will have even more noise/static....but if you have 'em programmed-in in USB mode, go for it...

Try WWV on 5mhz at nighttime, and 10mhz daytime....and maybe 15mhz near midday...
WWVH on 5mhz and 10mhz at nighttime, and 10mhz and 15mhz (sometimes) daytime...






5) As for listening to "cruising nets"....well, your fellow cruisers signals vary quite a bit (some are good, but many are not), and since most "west coast cruisers" that are using HF marine radio, are in Mexico, or Cent America, or in Pacific, etc., (> 1500nm from Vancouver), their signals might not be strong enough to overcome your local noise (RFI), from shore....and/or more likely RFI from your boat (and/or other boats near you)

But, you could give 'em a listen...

http://www.docksideradio.com/west_coast.htm

http://www.docksideradio.com/east_coast.htm

You'll likely only have success on the 6mhz and 4mhz West Coast Nets, with the very early morning and/or early evening nets....and/or maybe the Chubasco Net on 40m....but try 'em all, as I'm not sure how strong some of those guys might be?
(of course, there is always 14300.0 on the ham bands, if you just want to listen or desire to get your ham license)




6) Now if you do have some ham radio bands programmed-in, and/or you want to program some in / use the M-710 in vfo mode (a real pain in the butt!), then you should listen to 14.300mhz (14300.0khz) anytime during your daylight hours, until early evening....for the Inter-con Net, Maritime Mobile Service Net, and Pacific Seafarer's Net....

Or just tune around the 40m and 20m bands during the day, and 40m and 80m bands at night...





7) FYI, one quick way to know that your radio is transmitting and the tuner is "tuning" is to go from channel to channel (say one on 4mhz, one on 8mhz and one on 12mhz, etc.) and transmit (press tune to verify the tuner has tuned, then press the mic button and talk...give your vessel name and callsign, and watch the M-710's display, it should show output that varies with your voice....and a quick whistle should show almost full output...)

Also, having another boat close by, at an adjacent dock or a few miles away is good....this way you can coordinate your HF tests / contact using your VHF radio....





8) Again, most of what you need to know is in the videos and the stickies....have a look:


"Maritime HF Comms"

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y



HF-DSC Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2n3z5nlv-ga2zYuPozhUXZX




Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2mPZAx2vWzdjTJjHlChruyY




Icom M-802 Instruction Videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2npivDjoFrC-8QKVyMb4tVr




Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nbwAGh5DKgTCj15iyl6qoY





https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-ssb-stuff-how-to-better-use-proeprly-install-ssb-and-troubleshoot-rfi-etc-133496.html

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/hf-ssb-radio-proper-installation-tips-techniques-etc-198305.html





To be clear here, and to sum up.....getting rid of your noise generating devices (or at least removing the power from them, when using your HF radio), and learning about HF Radiowave Propagation, and having a good HF antenna ground, is what will get you success in HF communications....


Fair winds.

John


P.S. Please be aware that the KISS is not an antenna ground, not at all....and, depending on where it is, can be worse than nothing at all....but, that's a whole 'nother discussion!
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Old 18-04-2020, 03:55   #8
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Quote:
Originally Posted by alctel View Post
I was at that spot for a year, it's really hard to pick up anything in any marina, but for some reason that spot seems to be especially bad.

Try picking up the time signals as brian suggested.
+1. Its often difficult to send or receive in marinas because of all the RF interfence.

I think your best bet is just to try and hear a strong relatively near broadcast. The list from dockside posted earlier is a good starting point. Also try the USCG weather broad cast channels. You can listen for their FAX channels as well...you just get fax noise instead of voice, but its a signal.

https://www.weather.gov/marine/uscg_broadcasts
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Old 18-04-2020, 10:16   #9
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

It's my understanding that the USCG actually does not mind people calling them on HF frequencies for radio checks. Easy to find their freqs online.
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Old 18-04-2020, 10:50   #10
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

They haven't made the 710 for quite a bit and they just replaced the 802 SSB as well. I had a new 710 in 2000 and it just died. a few months ago.
My bets are yours is dead too. Just because you can hear something doesn't mean it will transmit. Yes, mine received fine but...
The ONLY way to see if it really works is to hook it up to an SWR meter and test both receive and transmit functions.
In as much as you're not a HAM radio guy that last may be hard for you to do. I suggest you ask a local HAM or contact me off the forum. I can explain it better.
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Old 18-04-2020, 13:05   #11
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ View Post
They haven't made the 710 for quite a bit and they just replaced the 802 SSB as well. I had a new 710 in 2000 and it just died. a few months ago.
My bets are yours is dead too. Just because you can hear something doesn't mean it will transmit. Yes, mine received fine but...
The ONLY way to see if it really works is to hook it up to an SWR meter and test both receive and transmit functions.
In as much as you're not a HAM radio guy that last may be hard for you to do. I suggest you ask a local HAM or contact me off the forum. I can explain it better.
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You can test transmit with a dummy load instead of an antenna. Ask a HAM for assistance.
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Old 18-04-2020, 14:03   #12
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Just dropped back in. Fair bit to read. Will do that now. Thanks.

Hey Matt. How are things? Had a reunion at FW few days ago. Lots of social distancing and homemade wine. Folks at the Causeway can stay till the end of June, but will probably give us the whole summer at winter rates since everything at the Causeway has been cancelled. Only R2AK is holding out, but will make a final decision next week.

Will pop back with questions and tales of success or failure.
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Old 18-04-2020, 15:32   #13
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

foojin,
Good luck with your tests!

If you don't have the manual, you can download it for free, from Icom...

BTW, make sure you have the radio's output set to "hi power"...




A few fyi's....some sailors are good intentioned, but might be leading you down a time consuming path....and one that costs you $$$
So, my advice is to start with the quick 'n easy (and free) stuff that works....if you still have problems/issues, then we can go forth with troubleshooting, just not yet...



So....
--- While an external power/swr meter is always nice to have (I have 'em permanently-mounted in my Nav Station), but the M-710 (like all Icom marine HF radios made in the past 30 years) does have a power output metering...

Each segment of the RF output display equals approx 15 - 20 watts, with all eight segments being 150 watts....

And, since the radio will fold-back its output power if it sees a high SWR....with slight fold-back at ~ 2:1...a 50% fold-back at ~3:1, and an 80% fold-back at infinite SWR....

And, while normal voice will show a widely varying output, a quick whistle (across the mic, not blowing into it) should show you almost full output....and of course, switching to FSK mode and keying the mic will get you a steady carrier to better use the metering you have...

Further, if you had a radio without any output metering, if you have a way of monitoring DC power drawn by the radio, you can interpolate its relative output from that....most "150 watt" marine HF transceivers will draw about 4 to 5 amps in transmit with no voice, and 28 to 29 amps on voice peaks, with an average 0f 12 to 18 amps...

So, even if you don't have an external power/swr meter, you can still use the radio display (or other metering) to estimate your antenna tuner's operation (if you get full output, or close to it, on multiple channels/bands, it is working), as well as a decent way of measuring how much output you have...


----And, sure transmitting into a dummy load (with some power/swr metering, too), is a good way to test the actual RF output of the radio, if it doesn't work thru the AT-130 tuner....
But, I doubt he has one on board (yeah, I have two on-board, but I'm a radio nut), and in reality he doesn't need one to test his radio!



----As for using Mexico cruising nets as a measure of success of a test of an M-710 from a marina in Vancouver?
Not a great place to start!

I stand behind my words above....once you confirmed the radio receives strong signals properly, and once you confirm / verify it is transmitting well (hopefully to someone local and then the USCG)...then give a listen for some cruising nets...
But, if you all you have is noise / static there on-board now, start by looking for strong signals, that are always there and/or there at guaranteed times / freqs....

Come on guys....foojin is new to HF, let him figure it out the east way!





Fair winds.

John
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Old 18-04-2020, 18:25   #14
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

John,

I don't want to sidetrack this conversation but since I have a I-710 and don't know much about it, I'm going to consider this relevant. I have a Icom-710 also that I inherited with the boat. I've gone through the dial and have heard discussions and weather and the time mark on the radio but I haven't tried to talk to anyone. I've gotten a couple of books on operating the radio but still have trouble getting a good start. I've started to watch your youtube videos but I have a ways to go. I would like to get a good start and understand the 710 fairly well and then move to a new model so I can get weather and internet on my computer.

For starters, I have a simple question. I see that you have a WDB6927 and KA4WJA. I have a number like the first one from when I registered the unit; however, I see you use the second one when you're communicating. What's the difference and if I don't need a license for the SSB what call sign do I use?

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Old 18-04-2020, 19:52   #15
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Re: Testing an IC-M710 to see if it works

Okay Jack,

I don't want to drift the thread either....but, think this is okay?
And, I'll try to give a couple quick answers (at the risk of not delving into too many details)


[Btw, not being a jerk here at all....just want to use the correct nomenclature, model numbers, etc...so we don't get confused....

Icom ham radios have model numbers starting with "IC" and then a number (such as IC-756 or IC-701, etc.)....

Icom marine radios have model numbers starting with "M" and then a number (such as M-600, M-700, M-800, M-710, M-710rt, M-700Pro, M-802, M-803...)

Icom marine radios are not an Ic-710 or Ic-802, etc....I know we all tend to abbreviate these days, and that's cool....but just wanted to head off any confusion...

And, fyi....for a lot of details on nomenclature / abbreviations, have a look at this page...
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2749864 ]


1) First off, my answer here to you is USA-centric...although most other developed countries have the same / similar rules, I won't delve into those here.

Also, be advised that while the M-710 is a nice marine radio, it is a very poor choice for ham radio operating....yes, it will transmit/receive on the ham bands just fine, but it is a pain-in-the-butt to use/program for ham operations....of course for occasional use on a few ham nets / ham cruising nets, it works well, but not really a good choice for ham operations....just wanted you to be aware.



2) Next, WDB6927 is my vessel's Maritime Mobile Service (marine radio) callsign....just like 366933110 is my vessel's MMSI #....(MMSI # = Maritime Mobile Service Identity number)

These belong to the vessel, no matter who is on-board, no matter who may be using the radio, etc., these are assigned to the vessel by the appropriate government licensing authority (in the USA, that is the FCC).

{I also have a radiotelephone operators license, issued by the FCC, which of course has no callsign attached to it, as it is good for those non-commercial users of aircraft radios, maritime radios, etc....in the US, this license is good for life and requires no test....(fyi, I used to have a GROL, long story on that, but don't need it, so no worries)}

If you have a US-flagged vessel, and have an HF radio, and/or make international voyages/make international contacts via VHF radio, etc.....then you will need an FCC issued maritime station license (that is assigned to the vessel) for a cost of $220, good for 10 years (this also includes your MMSI #); and a restricted radiotelephone operators license for a cost of $60, good for life...

FYI, when you apply for the maritime station license, be sure to check all the boxes of radio systems that you may desire to have on-board, even if you don't yet have them....such as AIS, EPIRB, Radar, MF/HF, VHF, etc....(and, I'm not sure if you can include your EPIRB hex# on that form, or not? Or do you add your FCC callsign on the NOAA EPIRB form? It's been too many years since I filled 'em out)



3) As for KA4WJA, that is my Amateur Radio Service (ham radio) callsign....and is assigned to me personally, and goes with me no matter where I am...

Now, there are specific rules regarding hams operating from other hams stations, depending on license class, frequencies being used, etc., depends on whose callsign is used...as well as rules when operating at sea, in international waters (and even some specific rules when in southern hemisphere and in Asia)....

But, don't worry about those weird / specific rules.....because in general the ham radio callsign is the operator's callsign and goes with him/her (contrasting with the Maritime callsign that is assigned to that one vessel only....you cannot use your boat's callsign on another boat nor on land..)




4) BTW, in addition to the Icom manual...
https://www.icomamerica.com/en/downl...x?Category=224


The CCA has an old (15 - 20 years old) M-710 / M-710RT operating/programming PDF...

https://wwww.cruisingclub.org/pdfs/c...710_m710rt.pdf




I hope this helps.

Fair winds.

John
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