SSB HELP for SABA 50

[RaymondR]

I had an Icom IC710 on my previous boat it was a pretty good radio but when I was upgrading the present vessel decided a replacement with all the same features was a waste of money and settled on an Icom IC-78. Seems to do the job for weather and NTMs from Willuna and Charleville.

They are still monitoring the HF emergency frequencies however I don't know whether it is spectrum management or offshore safety doing the job.

About six months ago a friend and I were attempting to see whether his old multi crystal, pre-synthesizer HF still worked.

I was in Maryborough and he in Cairns.

Since he had a limited set of frequencies he was nominating the working frequency over our mobile phones. As we worked our way up the bands. I recall a moment of disquiet when he came through on the 4 meg band which was 5 by 5.

Carried away by our success we chatted about it until sternly told to get off the calling and emergency frequency.

With startling clarity 2182, 4125, 6280 etc, leaped back into the forefront of my perception, it arrived slightly in advance of severe embarrassment.

Someone out there with a very powerful transmitter and fairly brusque manner with transgressors is still monitoring the HF emergency and calling frequencies.

[BigBeakie]

SteveWrightNZ,

Your post relates to the US regs & enforcement by the FCC re the ICOM M802 & the implementation of DSC in US waters.

I'm talking about something completely different. The Land of Oz govmint hath decreed that the M802 that is approved by hundreds of other countries is not good enough for our precious sea goers. In the Land of Oz, we must purchase a modified version of EXACTLY the same radio, part for part, spec for spec, as the M802 except our "better" version, the M801E has a different case, and is ...what a surprise...much more expensive.

By the regs, use of an M802 in Oz waters contravenes the Marine Communications legislation, and your radio can be seized by whoever is supposed to police this stupidity.

Have any radios been seized? Not that I can determine.

Can anyone tell whether a radio transmission is from a specific model of ICOM HF/SSB radio? Of course not.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

trim.. By the regs, use of an M802 in Oz waters contravenes the Marine Communications legislation, and your radio can be seized by whoever is supposed to police this stupidity.

Have any radios been seized? Not that I can determine.

Can anyone tell whether a radio transmission is from a specific model of ICOM HF/SSB radio? Of course not.

Owch. Scare tactics.

We, across the ditch, do regularly see examples of the oz govts particularly anal approach to communications and we sense your discomfort.

As far as I can tell, HF is not mandatory, so I think I'd be inclined to completely ditch a marine-compliant installation and have an Amateur Installation, if you were so inclined. Lets see them refuse to answer your SSB calls on 4146 then please.... not going to happen..

[Jim Cate]

The reason for the waterproof case is for when a wave breaks the front window and to make sure the radio is still operational.

Good grief! I wonder if that is written into the regs anywhere?

For yachts, where HF radio installation is not mandated, a disabled by wave action radio simply makes the communications similar to those boats not equipped with the HF rig in the first place. How in the world do they manipulate that fact into this requirement?

Ridiculous!

Jim

[BigBeakie]

They don't use logic, Jim. Borecrats have their very own special type of thinking, that self justifies their existence.

In this case the justification I heard was that they were trying to protect sailors/ fishermen/etc from the radio getting flooded, mainly by front windows breaking in bad seas. Typical "sledge hammer to break walnut" thinking.


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[ka4wja]

Hella44,
Sorry I've been tied up this past week, and just now am getting around to Cruiser's Forum.
BTW, Sweet looking boat!!!!
Congrats!
(and I'm a monohull sailor)



Also, please note that just about all the answers to your questions can be found in the stickies, right at the top of the Marine Electronics page...
As well as answers to many, many more!!!

Originally Posted by Helia 44

I am Old School, and a HAM, Maritime Mobile, looking at getting a Marine SSB for my Saba 50...

Ship to Ship, talkies, news, and Weather. I was planning on getting an ICOM 801E here for Australia. It will do all of that, with an Icom Auto Antennae tuner.

However, I am told (possibly wrong) that Commercial Ships no longer use SSB, they are on Sat Phones. I do not want to go that way. Do they still monitor SSB these days?? Or is Marine SSB a bit obsolete and I should just get a HAM rig and modify it for full band transmit...??

Fair warning, this is going to be LONG....but should answer most of your questions / concerns!!

1) First off, the short answer is:
Buy an Icom M-802....it will work very well for you on both the maritime and ham bands....(it's performance actually impresses many hams that have tried it...as they somehow think marine rigs are old-fashioned or have no features)

One of the reasons for the confusion and conflicting info, regarding communicating with commercial shipping, etc., is that we need to be specific in what constitutes "use"...


You see, the GMDSS, established in 1992 (from the SOLAS conventions in 1988), and fully implemented for all SOLAS vessels (most commercial vessels on the ocean) and all signatory nations, in Jan 1999....this GMDSS set out many nice things...(and some foolish things)!

One such nice feature was the multiple ways of signaling other vessels and/or shore stations (and/or RCC's), whether for Distress or Routine situations...
These ways are:
VHF-DSC
MF-DSC
HF-DSC
VHF-FM-Voice (in certain areas)
IMARSAT-C or INMARSAT Fleet System
406mhz EPIRB
SART's

[for details of all of this, please read here:
Marine HF-DSC-SSB, the GMDSS, "communications stool legs" ]

You'll notice I wrote signaling in bold-type...because those are the only ways to signal other vessels at sea (and except for USCG, AMSA, and NZMA) the only way to signal shore stations as well...
(again, details in the referenced thread.)

But, I didn't write communicate with...
That's because after you've signaled another vessel or shore station, via one of the ways shown above, it is with any of these 3 ways that you will be able to talk with / communicate with that vessel or shore station:
--- MF/HF-SSB Radiotelephone (SSB Voice is preferred, but SITOR can also be used by some)
--- VHF-FM radiotelephone (if within VHF radio range)
--- INMARSAT-C (or INMARSAT Fleet system)

So, while all SOLAS vessels (and all signatory nations) are required to have specific communications equipment dependent on where they are voyaging / what Sea Area they are in or covering....along with VHF-DSC-FM Radiotelephone, this is usually one or two MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephones and one or two INMARSAT-C terminals...but they no longer maintain any VOICE radio watch on those radios!!

They must have the radios at the ready, and must be able at an instant to use them to communicate with you / other vessels / shore stations, but they are not required to maintain a VOICE radio watch, so they are NOT listening for any VOICE (SSB) calls...

They ARE required to maintain a MF/HF-DSC watch, a VHF-DSC watch....as well as an INMARSAT-C watch....at all times they are at sea....
(and this is the same for all signatory nations....they're required to have the VOICE radio communications equipment to cover their area of responsibility, but only maintain a radio watch via DSC, not VOICE...)

So, the answer is yes and no...
Commercial ships yes still communicate via SSB Voice (although it is rare these days, as most traffic is handled via sat comm), and are still required to have this equipment in 100% operation...
But, no, they do not maintain an SSB Voice radio watch....
So, you must signal them via DSC, and then communicate with them via Voice....

Again, details in the referenced thread...
And, again, the USCG, AMSA, and NZMA, still maintain a Voice radio watch on VHF-FM and HF-SSB.


https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=cgcommsCall



2) Please understand that no matter what radio you choose to install, it is the installation, wiring, commissioning, etc. that makes or breaks the system!!! (along with you the operator!!)
--- And, the antenna and antenna ground (antenna ground / rf ground / counterpoise) are one of the three primary things overlooked!! (This is a subject all it own!)
--- Another is RFI on-board!! (This is also a subject all it own!)
--- And, of course, the radio operator themselves!! (And, this too is a subject all it own!)

You could take a 30 year old, basic ham rig, install it correctly, connect it to an excellent antenna and ground system, reduce/eliminate any on-board RFI, and it will play great!! And, any decent operator will be happy with it...

Conversely, you could take a top-of-the-line Icom IC-7851 (~ $13,000), or Elecraft K3s with all options, plue external tuner (>$4000 - $5000), or an Icom M-802, etc....and do a piss-poor install, have a poor antenna ground, and/or too much on-board RFI, etc....and even the best, most experienced operators will find it almost useless!!!

Now, it's difficult to say this to someone anonymous, that I don't know..but, I do try to do it as often as I can...
You, the radio operator, are one of the primary parts of the HF communications system on-board!

Now, Steven, you might actually know radio! And, being an old ham is good!
(just remember that there are many out there that don't have that background to look back on....and, also don't forget that while physics is still the same / radiowave travel the same, we are nearing a low point in our solar-cycle, AND there are radio features/systems in existence today that were not there 40 years ago, like HF-DSC....a part of the GMDSS!)

Also, remember that one of the best filters in the world is the human brain....the human ear-brain can filter things very well....pick out voices in a crowd, etc...
And, one thing that helps a LOT on the radio is headphones!! A pair of decent communications headphones will help anyone and any radio!! (no need to spend a lot of $$$, just $50 to $75 gets you a great set!!)

Noise, whether natural band noise or on-board RFI can be a pain....and fact is that once the noise gets to your antenna / your receiver, most of the problem is solved by the human, not the "noise reduction" in modern radios!
There are exceptions, but most modern "noise reduction" circuits are DSP based, and once they are adjusted high enough to reduce the noise, they produce digital artifacts that can make copying the information worse than it was with the noise!!
Simple solution, use headphones, eliminate on-board RFI, and learn more about radio noise, etc....as well as radiowave propagation!! (and these help no matter what radio you have!!)


3) Next, I need to give a shout-out to Jim and Ann Cate!
And, preface my comments here about radios, with some about them...
They're great!!
Never met 'em, never even spoken to 'em....but have read a good deal of their postings and they're the "real deal"!
They're out there, still doing it!
{I, myself, started cruising as a kid in the mid 1960's...and continued on/off over the decades....but my last Atlantic crossing was in 2007 (1st one in the 70's), as family commitments keep me close to Florida thesedays, with a quick jaunt to Bahamas and a weekend coastal sail,every so often...so, I do wish that I was still out there now!}

I respect Jim and Ann's experience and expertise, and have learned from them (and others here)...
But...

Ya' ever notice when someone says "with all due respect", the next words usually are far from respectful??
Well, please know that I respect Jim's knowledge in many areas....it's just that "radio" is my forte....both maritime and ham....been doing it since the 1970's...I studied, and taught: radiowave propagation, antenna system design, specialized communications systems, RF receiver and transmitter design, and of course radio operations!, etc...and I have operated a lot, from both land and sea....and whether contesting, handling traffic, or rag chewing (I've done all in about equal parts), it's mostly all about antenna, received RFI, and the operator!!!

I wonder if Jim is thinking of another radio?? Or conflating features / foibles of different radios?? (an IC-706, perhaps?)
'Cuz the M-802 is one of the 21st Century's least menu-driven HF radios made....even the IC-718 has more menu-driven features and necessity to dig deeper into menus for simple things...

So...
Allow me to correct and clarify some things...without in any way being disrespectful...


4) The Icom M-802 (or M-801e) is the only, affordable maritime MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone on the market....and, as far as I know, now is the only one that is 12vdc powered...(furuno, sailor, jrc, etc., have all stopped making 12vdc MF/HF-DSC-SSB radios...they are all 24vdc/110vac-230vac)


And, the M-802 works very well as a ham rig too!! Very Nice!
{btw, in addition to being certified in the US for FCC Part 80 operations (maritime), it is also certified for Part 87 (aviation) and Part 90 (commercial fixed/land mobile)....of course there is no FCC certification for ham radios, other than the Part 15 that all radios must meet....but this radio works well for Ham, Maritime, Aviation, and Land Mobile!}

The Icom M-802's IF, DSP, and Audio sections are similar to that of the Icom IC-756ProIII
It's RF and PA sections are more robust and advanced...
And, of course, it's "user interface" / "display" / "controls" are very different....

{very early M-802's suffered from a defect that caused intermittent "clipping" / "cut-out" of the transmitted SSB audio...solved years ago, and Icom will still fix this for free, for any old M-802's that need it done..}

All-in-all, the M-802 is a good radio, with excellent, clean transmitter and a very nice receiver....easy to use on the ham bands, too...real VFO, real features, etc..

FYI, I do not work for Icom, nor am I in the marine electronics business....so, I have no dog in the fight....just the specs / operational results of the radio, and my own personal experiences owning/using an M-802 for the past 14 years, as well as other HF rigs for > 40 years!

Bottom line: It is not a deep menu driven radio!!
Not at all...


Allow me to elaborate:

-one button turns it on/off
-one knob changes the channel
-one knob changes the band
-one button turns the "channel knob" into the VFO (for general coverage / ham band use)
-one knob for volume
-one button changes the mode (cw, usb, lsb, fsk, afsk, am...and automatically selects the default rec bandwidth for that mode, but you can change that bandwidth in a menu)
-one button engages the antenna tuner (but most never need it, as most set-up system to "auto tune")
-one button to send a DSC Distress Alert
-one button selects other DSC features (here there is a menu)
-one button changes display from alpha-numeric names to frequency
-one button engages clarifier / RIT

two buttons:
F and 1: Noise blanker on/off
F and 2: Squelch on/off
F and 3: Scan start/stop (there are menu functions where you can set scan speeds and limits)
F and 4: Speaker on/off
F and 5: AGC on/off
F and 6: RF gain adjustment
F and 7: Low power (20-25 watts)
F and 8: Medium power (55 to 60 watts)
F and 9: High power (140 - 150 watts)

The M-802 has a front panel headphone jack, and a microphone with "up"/"down" buttons (used to change channels or VFO frequency), and a selectable/programable "function" button (I use mine to select squelch on/off)...
And, the microphone is a speaker/mic (or optional handset, standard with the M-801e) as it also has the receive audio available...
(btw, the standard hand mic is one of the most rugged I've seen....beats any ham radio's mic!....Icom, as well as other manufacturers suffered some defective mic cords, made by an OEM vendor....but, Icom makes good on them, for free!!)

The only things that some hams think are "missing" are: "narrow SSB filtering" for crowded (contesting) bands; and an "IF shift" to help when on crowded / contest-filled bands...
The mode button automatically selects your user default bandwidthm when selecting cw, etc....so there is no actual "narrow SSB filter", nor "IF shift"...
But, since the M-802's excellent 1st IF system and IF-DSP system, produce an excellent receiver that is only beaten by those very high-end contest-type ham rigs, costing > $5000 USD...
(and, btw, since you're not likely to be doing a CQWW SSB contest from your boat, it's doubtful that any ham will miss either of these features, once they actually operate the radio for a few hours! Trust me....I'm one of those old, die-hard, hams...that thinks "more knobs, more features, more adjustments....the better"....)
But, the fact is that this M-802 is a very nice radio....and stands its ground today against rigs twice her price!

Now, in general, most sailors and most hams need just a few "features" / adjustments to do 99% of their operating...
on/off; volume; band; channel/freq adjust; RF gain; (and with the M-802, only the RF gain requires more than one button press...)

Along with turning the speaker on/off, and squelch on/off, and the noise blanker on/off, there are few other things that any sailor / ham needs to do, to operate this radio...100%...

So, what's not to like about it??

In the USA, the M-802 sells for ~ $1800 - $1900 USD (plus ~ $450 for the AT-140 tuner)....
And most sell a whole package, M-802/AT-140, all cables/connectors, DSC receive antenna and cable, coax, GPS NMEA cable, line isolator, ferrite for RFI mitigation, GTO-15 antenna wire, grounding strap, etc. etc....all-in, for about ~ $2600 to $2700 USD...

Icom SSB Radio Kits & Components

M802 Single Side Band (SSB) - Features - Icom America



The M-801e is the same radio circuitry, in a different case / layout, with a slightly different firmware (to conform to some odd, and old, EU and AUS rules)...,there are a few minor operational difference, but as long as you confirm that the M-801e you buy is opened for "general" operation / ham band operation (and speech compressor is turned On), you should be fine with it....
But, it isn't going to be any better of a radio...and will cost you a lot more!
Icom Australia | Everything in Radio: Marine | IC-M801E
https://www.mobilesystems.co.nz/prod...B_Marine_Radio
https://www.icomuk.co.uk/IC-M801E/HF-SSB_Marine_Radio

I highly recommend the M-802!
But, there was some info I read a few years ago that Australia wasn't going to allow the M-802, for maritime communications use?? And, then more recently the Aus radio authority says no worries??
So, depending on you HF comms license and what you application is, might make it easy to just install the M-802....
(I know some Aus sailors have stated that they just bought the M-802 as their ham radio, and simply inputted their MMSI# into it....and nobody at the Aus radio authority ever knows...not sure about the accuracy of those writings, but you can check with some Aus sailors, as I'm 10,000 miles away from Australia...)


If you wish to see / hear / understand more about the M-802, HF-DSC communications, Maritime HF communications, etc....there are some stickies here and some youtube playlists, that will be of great help to you...
Please have a look!! Please...
You will learn a lot!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-133496.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-198305.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...on-169164.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ds-146617.html

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...os-141406.html





Please watch these videos!! (watch them via these playlists, that way they will all make logical sense)!!
But, forgive the poor edits and bouncy camera....as these are all made on-board a real offshore cruising boat, floating at a dock....and all show LIVE, REAL-WORLD, actual use / demonstrations....not laboratory simulations!!
And, while I might repeat things for clarity of laypersons, please remember there was no script, no director, just me....all off the-top-of-my-head, live...so, you all see what really happens!!

HF-DSC Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2n3z5nlv-ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Icom M-802 Instructions
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2npivDjoFrC-8QKVyMb4tVr


Maritime HF Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2nPNdApNsZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2mPZAx2vWzdjTJjHlChruyY


VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2m-IejYg7J6QugtO2epizxF


Offshore sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY



I do hope this helps.

Fair winds.

John


P.S.: As for pure ham rigs...(should you want a second radio to back-up the M-802...I have two M-802's, myself, but some want a ham rig, too)

While I'm an Icom fan, I have my old Drake TR-7's at home, and LOVE 'em!!!

And, while I think the Icom IC-756Pro series rigs were great, some of their new/modern rigs are rather flakey / unreliable...although the IC-7610 is nice, I'd wait 'til all the bugs are worked out..

The only modern Yaesu that is worth it is the high-end FTdx-5000..

Kenwood scored big with the TS-590SG...a nice rig....a big step up from the older (but still nice) TS-480 series...

Elecraft K3s gets a lot of attention from the lemmings, and has a great receiver and is a great contest rig...(but a rather crappy transmitter!!) avoid this one...

If you must have a ham rig, here would be recommends (in order):
Icom M-802
Icom IC-756ProII or ProIII
Kenwood TS-590SG
Kenwood TS-480HX
Yaesu FTdx-5000
(except for the FTdx-5000, I've owned or operated all of these, a lot)

Notice that I consider the M-802 an excellent ham rig....as a ham rig for the boat, it is!!!

[Helia 44]

WOW, WHAT A "SPECTRUM" OF INFORMATION AND SLANTS ON THIS...!! I AM BOGGLED, AND HAVE MADE AN INDEPENDENT DECISION:

Not to skite (brag) just my reality, money is not the deciding factor. I still have my Business going with 60 Employees, and long term Office Manager and my Son and four other Office Staff keeping it going. I guess the point is I would rather have it in gear than in the bank...

I was told the 802 was illegal and not available, and decided to go for the top of the range: I Ordered the ICOM 801E. I am anchored off Whitsunday Island. Am going for the "full monte", new synthesized electronic ground plane in the hull, ICOM AT-141 Auto Tuner, and it will all be installed on Aug 8 in Abell Point Marina.

I also have a 20 year old HAM, a Kenwood TS-50-S a full featured Ham that will go to 10-50-100 watts that is in a wood box in storage. It will go on the SABA 50 "Serenity" as well... 2 weeks running through the Reef and Islands on the way up here, the SABA 50 has outperformed all expectations. I will continue on with the Thread in the Fountaine Pajot Section "Improvements to the SABA 50" if any of you are interested...

This time next year, with both, I will be better to be able to give a definitive answer to all of this. At my age, better to have it and not need it, that the other way around. At 66 years old, I am running out of time faster than running out of money.

I thank all of you for your help and answers. I will have to get my old HAM License reinstated, as well as possibly sit for the Coast Guard Radio school SSB License, or may not bother. And BTW: No one has ever questioned me or ask to see any Licenses.

ka4wja, what a lot of work! What a definitive answer!! I have decided to go all of it, ICOM 801E with DSC and Ham.. Thank You! Anyway, Jim Cate, Thank You for all the work you did to answer this, and you too Big Beakie!! And Steve Wright, and all the others: Thank You all...!!

73's

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by Helia 44

..... synthesized electronic ground plane in the hull

Be careful with this sort of tuning trickery. The "artificial ground" is all very good at making your SWR look great, but they do nothing for your radiated power.

Also make sure the radiating part has "plenty of wire in the air" instead of coiled up around some bit of plastic.

Systems like this should really be center-fed if you can get it.

Hope to talk on the air with you! Either on 80/40m or 4/6/8MHz marine.

Steve ZL1 big hairy dog

[ka4wja]

Steven,
1) Before you pay for the M-801e, please make sure the seller / installer will enable "general" operation of the 801e, thereby allow ham communications!!
'Cuz right from the factory it will NOT transmit on the ham bands (except for 160m)...


2) Please take to heart three very important things, if nothing else...

a) it is the installation that is important! (I've seen "professional installations" that are so poor, that my 97-yr old non-tech Mom would've done better!....make damn sure it ALL works before the installer leaves....take NO excuses about "marina RFI" or "propagation", etc...
I can copy Australian marine weather here in Florida, at the dock, with my M-802....on 12.362 and 12.365 daytime and 8176 at night or greyline...and I'm 10,000 to 11,000 miles away!)


b) Use a nice antenna and ground....
---a long rope-tenna will work many, many db better than a whip, on the lower bands (3.5/4mhz thru 7/8mhz...and even 12mhz, too)....no matter what someone says...

--- never heard of an "synthesized electronic ground plane"....
Is it possible that this is a "sintered bronze ground plate"?? (also known as a "Dynaplate") 'cuz that's great!


c) Brush up on the GMDSS, watch the videos....they will help!
And, fyi, while I designed the videos for layperson sailors, I've had some of my fellow seasoned hams tell me they've learned something from them...



Please remember, it's the installation; antenna and ground; and the operator, that makes the radio system work....the exact radio is actually well down the list!


Fair winds.

73,
John, KA4WJA

[Jim Cate]

WOW, WHAT A "SPECTRUM" OF INFORMATION AND SLANTS ON THIS...!! I AM BOGGLED, AND HAVE MADE AN INDEPENDENT DECISION:

Well, well done! You will get lots of good comms from that setup (would like more detail on the ground system and antenna that you propose).

And John (4WJA) thanks for the kind words. I still find the 802 to be awkward to operate and to set up. The manual is pretty difficult to interpret in places (from memory... it has been a while since the last time I tried to help out a bewildered new owner and became bewildered myself) and the proliferation of multi purpose buttons is hard to keep in my mind. But you are right to say that its performance, when properly set up is good. BTW, in our neck of the woods I've found that merchant vessels will indeed reply to voice calls on VHF, and often will not reply to DSC calls on VHF. Go figger! No explanation offered... just recent experience.

So, we'll keep an eye out for the Saba when we get further north, and listen for you on the ham bands when you get your license back. Do come up on the Comedy Net when you are able: 7.087 LSB at 2040 GMT daily. You'll find a bunch of fellow cruisers and enthusiastic land lubbers to chat with.

Jim VK4GFT/N9GFT

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

it is the installation that is important! .........make damn sure it ALL works before the installer leaves....take NO excuses about "marina RFI" or "propagation", etc...

This is an ongoing series of improvements, even for a substantial amateur installation.

The installer is not responsible for your HF station. He reads the manual, screws things down and wires them up. If you want a top HF station then you have to take responsibility for it yourself. This is NOT like VHF where you plug it in and it works.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Use a nice antenna and ground....
---a long rope-tenna will work many, many db better than a whip, on the lower bands (3.5/4mhz thru 7/8mhz...and even 12mhz, too)....no matter what someone says...

This is correct. Even better, halyard a centre-fed monoband wire dipole or fan dipole for the band in use. (generally you'll spend a session on one band.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

--- never heard of an "synthesized electronic ground plane"....

It's called an artificial ground. Google will show you.

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Please remember, it's the installation; antenna and ground; and the operator, that makes the radio system work....the exact radio is actually well down the list!

HF operating is an art. If you want to see the experts at work, listen around on 40 and 20m bands during a contest and watch the level at which these people can move data with a hand microphone.

[ka4wja]

Jim....don't you know, never read the manual! That just confuses things...
Seriously, yeah the 802 manual is crap....and that's being kind!
(actually helping a friend on a sistership understand his M-802, after he was confused by the manual...was the impetus for me to make the videos)

73,
John

[ka4wja]

SteveWright,
I disagree with you here...(and perhaps we will just agree to disagree?)

Please understand that this is not personal, and I assume we have different prospectives...
So, I'm sorry for the rant that follows!


I've made my living in the electronics / communications industry....and if I took this approach ("This is an ongoing series of improvements....
The installer is not responsible for your HF station...") with my clients (not maritime), I wouldn't have survived 30 days, let alone 30+ years...

The installer (at least here in the USA) IS responsible for the proper install, set-up, programming, and commissioning of the system....top-to-bottom, soup-to-nuts....and this DOES include making sure it not only "meets spec", but also actually operates / provides the communications specified by the purchaser!!
(again, I'm not in the marine electronics business, but in my business this was the way to make the customer happy, pay me more money, and usually never bother me until they wanted to expand / spend more money!! not to mention the ethical way of doing business!!!!!)

And, I've heard the BS from my fellow sailors and fellow hams for years....

How about that old myth that you can't use the HF radio in port / in a marina 'cuz the masts/rigging soak up all the signal...total BS!!

{Starting some 40 years ago, I heard this claptrap....and in the late 70's I was on-board in the eastern Med, tied with hundreds of other boats, rigging and what not all around, and when needing to call back to the US, you'd need to wait an hour or two until an "international line" was available at the "telephone office", and even then the connection was poor...so, we'd just use the HF radio, thru WOO and WOM, and place calls right there from the boat, with all that rigging soaking up the signals...

Or how about summer of 2007, in Marina Bay in Gibraltar....with lots of masts/rigging (and now-a-days lots of RFI from other boats and the shore facilities)....and while I didn't "need" to use WLO to call home, I did that for fun....and also checked in with Herb on Southbound II, on his weather net on 12.359mhz....he only had a dipole and 150 watts from his house near Toronto, CA....and while my receive RFI was high from all the other boats, we talked everyday for over a week, etc...no worries...and that was with fairly poor propagation...

Or how about the fact that I regularly copy Australian marine weather on 12362 and 12365, here at the dock in Florida....and even on 8176...

Fact is, while other metallic structures in your antenna's near field will effect its pattern, you WILL still get your signal out, and it will still be just fine (assuming you have a good antenna and antenna ground)...

And, while RFI in a marina is usually high, you CAN work around it...especially if you choose the freq/channel correctly, you can make contacts with someone at some rather nice distances...

ANY HF radio installer / operator that cannot do this, is not someone that you should be paying money for their "expertise" [sic]

I have said and written for decades (and stand behind my words today), that any properly designed / installed / commissioned Marine HF system should work every time....and, if so properly done, that any trained / experienced operator should be able to walk on-board that boat, turn the radio on, and find some station somewhere to talk to within 30 to 60 seconds, and they should be able to raise someone and start a two-way communication within another 30 - 60 seconds!!! (ham or maritime)
If this cannot be done, the system is NOT done right!!

Remember, this is not a ham station at home....this is not my shack at home....this is not some experimental system....this is a well-designed and well-engineered Maritime MF/HF-DSC-SSB Communications system, and if done properly (and maybe as close to the GMDSS spec as possible on a private yacht), it should work this way, every time!!
(of course random solar flares and short-term radio blackouts, excepted)

I cringe when I hear people say that they "paid a professional to install this...and it's never worked right"...
I wonder why in the world did they PAY 'em??? 'cuz I surely wouldn't have!

And, what kind of "professional" doesn't show his pride in work, and show their client how it all works??
Really??

Maybe I'm just too old fashioned, but goodness let's not recommend settling for mediocre!!
If some wish to do so for their own boat and bank account, that is their choice....but to recommend others to accept mediocre is rather odd to me....



Now, as regarding antennas....
This is something that could take weeks....and I don't have the time...
So...just in brief..

Nothing wrong with a dipole / vertical dipole...but, what in the world does this have to do with a 1.6mhz thru 25mhz effective and efficient antenna system on a boat at sea???
Yeah, Bill's 20m vertical dipoles for sailboats are great....but they're single band antennas and are not a substitute for a real marine HF antenna...
(and rigging a "fan dipole"??? really??? Have you ever done so on a boat?? I have....I designed and installed a 12mhz and 14mhz "fan dipole" and with the interaction of the wires and the rigging it was a pain in the butt to get it to work / tune....but I did it for fun...I cannot imagine anyone trying this for a primary antenna....never gonna' work very well...sorry...)

SteveWright, I've studied and taught antenna design and built hundreds....started with a real single-wire windom and then a doublet in 1974...then a 3 element yagi in 1975....and hundreds more in the following 45 years...
Please don't take this personal, I'm just saying that recommending such compromise antennas is, in my opinion, quite odd...



As for listening to 20m and 40m during contests...yep, I've run my share of contests....and have always preferred the harder ones (160m and VHF), but yes, I've been one of those ops that you say can move a lot of traffic....and yes, it does take practice and experience...BUT...
But, fact is the GMDSS was designed and implemented to make the expertise and experience of the operator less important (to irrelevant)...

And, this is why I say that if the radio system is designed/installed correctly, it will work!! In a marina, with bad propagation, with RFI, etc...it WILL work....
And, I don't wish anyone here to accept mediocre as the "norm"...




Finally, I'm very familiar with the "artificial ground" crap....but I'm hoping the "synthesized electronic ground plane" is just a confusion about a "sintered bronze grounding plate" (Dynaplate)???
'Cuz, if it is what you say it is, this is a VERY BAD omen for Steven, Hella44...'cuz it says that the guy selling / installing his new M-801e doesn't have a clue!!


Okay, gotta go....
Again, nothing personal....just trying to clarify for everyone.


fair winds.

73,
John

[Unregistered-1]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

So, I'm sorry for the rant that follows!

I don't spend my time "fixing" someone elses' incorrect suggestions, and there is rather a lot there to fix there, so yes we'll just disagree.

It's a pity about all the badness you typed though.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by SteveWrightNZ

I don't spend my time "fixing" someone elses' incorrect suggestions, and there is rather a lot there to fix there, so yes we'll just disagree.

It's a pity about all the badness you typed though.

C'mon Steve, don't just give us the raspberry and walk away! Let's start with one of your recommendations:

Originally Posted by SteveWrightNZ

Even better, halyard a centre-fed monoband wire dipole or fan dipole for the band in use. (generally you'll spend a session on one band.

Really? A fan dipole on a small sailboat? One that covers 6 MHz? The Queen Mary perhaps... And monoband wire dipoles? I don't know about you, but I change bands at least twice a day: daytime and evening propagation demands it. Many times if I can't connect with one Sailmail station I will switch try another at a different location and change bands accordingly. Sometimes there are several workable time/location/frequency options, but one station is busy and another is idle. Again, I switch bands as needed.

When I was the comms boat for our Hawaii races, I would often switch bands several times in one session, in order to work boats ranging many hundreds of miles near and far from me. Sure, I could have used multiple monoband dipoles, but we were racing and I certainly didn't have the time to hoist and switch multiple antennas.

So I use a tuner, an average-length backstay, and a good ground system. This is what most people use, and for good reason. We need to communicate, not spend a lot of time fiddling with the optimum antenna.

So is this a bad setup? This is for my sailboat, not my permanent ham station on shore.