Satphone & HF for Ocean Crossings?

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean sharing of information already in the public domain and not IP.

snippity snip

That would only be "the benefit of the doubt" if you were keen on protecting corporate "ownership" of intellectual property rights, right?

I don't agree with Morgan's assessment of where we are headed - though you could analyze technology trends (if not legal trends) in a way which leads to his conclusions. I sure do hope he is right though.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by storyinframes

Just for knowledge sake, what would be the size of the transmission antenna for an equipment using something like ELF?
Cheers

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Submarines tow a long inductively-loaded antenna for ELF (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/754949.pdf). The one described in this document is 300 meters long -- definitely not your standard resonant antenna! Newer designs seem to be using Superconducting Quantum Interference Device (SQUID) elements, requiring liquid Helium cooling. (http://torpedo.nrl.navy.mil/tu/ps/pd...der?dsn=353579)

I think these are receive-only antennas though. Here is a description of a Navy ELF transmitting station (land-based): http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/c3i/fs_clam_lake_elf2003.pdf . They mention "more than 28 miles of over-head signal transmission line".

If I told you more I'd have to kill you.

Paul is on the money. I can add "they are BIG"

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by morgan3

Just another thought i feel inclined to add.....

Before too long, society will realize that communication and the sharing of information is a basic human right.......not something that must be "earned" and only available to those with the $$ to afford it.

At that point, once we have the phone, there will be no charge for monthly service. The social networks, satellites, and infrastructure will be owned by the people for the people - rather than by corporations for profit...

So i think anyone who wishes to invest and function coherently in the future, will be setting up social networks on twitter, etc......and figuring out some way to post to them. Whether it be a satellite phone, or an SSB and sailmail, really makes little difference. Twitter is free, extremely simple, and there are no barriers to entry.....and your network will exist for an eternity in "the cloud"......easily transferable to the newest twitter like social network, which will eventually be ONE single network owned by the people for the people.

You mean something over and above the free stuff we already have - two ears and one mouth

Interesting concept, I give you that!

[Jbaffoh]

Originally Posted by morgan3

Just another thought i feel inclined to add.....

Before too long, society will realize that communication and the sharing of information is a basic human right.......not something that must be "earned" and only available to those with the $$ to afford it.

At that point, once we have the phone, there will be no charge for monthly service. The social networks, satellites, and infrastructure will be owned by the people for the people - rather than by corporations for profit...

So i think anyone who wishes to invest and function coherently in the future, will be setting up social networks on twitter, etc......and figuring out some way to post to them. Whether it be a satellite phone, or an SSB and sailmail, really makes little difference. Twitter is free, extremely simple, and there are no barriers to entry.....and your network will exist for an eternity in "the cloud"......easily transferable to the newest twitter like social network, which will eventually be ONE single network owned by the people for the people.

I feel inclined to add that any intelligent and appropriate response to this would violate forum rules that require politeness and respect in the face of absurdity.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Mambo

That would only be "the benefit of the doubt" if you were keen on protecting corporate "ownership" of intellectual property rights, right?

I don't agree with Morgan's assessment of where we are headed - though you could analyze technology trends (if not legal trends) in a way which leads to his conclusions. I sure do hope he is right though.

You hope he is right...right! So you are saying that corporations should not own patents, proprietary processes, etc. The formula for Coke should be public information.

Then tell me who will work hard and innovate without incentives or rewards to make our world a better place in the future.

I think there are a number of countries that you could move to where you would be much happier working and innovating for the state for example. Seriously, this experiment has failed everywhere it has been tried.

[Mambo]

Its called equality of opportunity. It is a decidedly American ideal, so I'll pass on you invitation to leave (thank you, that was quite civil of you). It is currently working quite well in places like Japan where their telecommunications infrastructure is at least 3-4 years ahead of our and is 95%+ controlled by the nationalized corporation NTT. You know, back when Adam Smith was writing the stuff that so many repeat without thinking about(like where'd the guy who carried the water up the hill get the bucket? and what about the guy who didn't have a bucket?), the laws regarding corporations spoke of their existence being tied to their ability to serve the public good. IP has a place in the world. But when you think about it instead of just championing a side in a battle framed by *really big boat owners* to keep us all in a state of paralysis; maybe you'll recognize that the scope length and extent of various IP protections should be revisited.

This is really OT and will annoy lots of folks who rightly want to talk HF / Sat Phone so if you'd like to continue lets take it to email or the like.

Peace.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by morgan3

Sattelite phone communication is no longer "point to point". Now with the popularity of social networks like facebook and twitter, the text message you send from a sat phone can reach all the right people - and quickly be "retweeted" to thousands more.

Surely you are not suggesting that Facebook and Twitter are life safety services. As a convenience and for entertainment they are certainly fine.

Originally Posted by morgan3

so all cruisers have to do is subscribe to the CLOD for the area, and they will receive SOS messages from others in the area.

If "SOS" means "I need a rebuild kit for a Jabsco toilet" to you I'll buy that. Absolutely not going to buy into Twitter for "the boat is sinking and we need help."

Originally Posted by cat man do

$2500 vs $500, no real contest in my eyes.

Not an apples to apples comparison. To get anything close to reliable connectivity with a sat phone you'll want a car kit (cradle, charger, and antenna connection) and a marine external antenna. By the time you're done the cost is in the same regime as an SSB.

In the US a DSC SSB, tuner, and Pactor modem run around $4000US -- a bit less if you hunt hard for a deal. A complete sat phone setup will be about $3000US. The purchase price for a phone is cheaper but not the wide spread often cited. That makes the break-even point between the two approaches move well within the duration of most cruises.

Those who try to make do with a sat phone handset only without a fixed installation will find themselves suffering many more dropped calls than with a more complete installation. In all likelihood you'll drag the phone and your laptop into the cockpit out of frustration in the hope of a better signal. How many times will you get away with that before spray takes your phone and/or laptop?

Originally Posted by AllanR

Some thoughts for consideration.

*snip* content for space efficiency

Well said.

Originally Posted by Wotname

To my mind, the biggest disadvantage of HF is the steep learning curve for new entrants and an ongoing commitment to stay current with who is operating where and when.

I often hear this excuse from cruisers justifying satellite phones. These same people will spend huge amounts of time learning the vagaries of watermakers, obscure plumbing, diesel mechanics, galvanic corrosion, and no end of other things. The only elements of HF radio communication one doesn't already need to know to cruise a small boat are the concept of frequencies (trivial) and HF radio propagation (not terribly complex). If you can manipulate a chart plotter or a radar you can learn to operate an HF radio.

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

The only proper radio for a ditch bag (out of VHF range) is a handheld aviation radio. You can be 1000 miles offshore but within 5-7 miles of the aircraft overhead.

Very interesting idea. Thanks.

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

You dont have to spend crazy money if you are only looking to receive! Including synoptic charts which are vastly better than the lazy man charts, oh I mean "grib files"...

Absolutely correct. GRIBs leave out too many important weather artifacts to be a primary source of information at sea. The GFS model most people use doesn't even show fronts!

In my opinion HF/SSB is the best primary long-haul communications mechanism available for the cruising sailor. As noted earlier in this thread many emergency services and civil and military agencies worldwide agree.

The only applications that in my mind appropriately drive toward a satellite phone are if active business or family care (like elderly parents) require a direct dial capability.

[atoll]

the future is actually going to be quite different from what you think!

all these technologies require rare earth metals and guess who controls most of them!

[teejayevans]

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

The only proper radio for a ditch bag (out of VHF range) is a handheld aviation radio. You can be 1000 miles offshore but within 5-7 miles of the aircraft overhead.

IF you know what channel(s) they are on, they have a emergency channel (121.500), but I'm not sure what the policy is for monitoring it in flight. Aviation VHF doesn't have channels like marine band, you basically dial the frequency in (like SSB), and since they are unlikely to be transmitting you would need to guess and do maydays on a hundreds of channels. If you were going to carry one, it might help you to get the frequencies used by the big airports on each side of the ocean you are on (i.e. in north atlantic: JFK, London, Boston, etc) and keep that with the radio. They are more expensive then marine vhf, $200 and up.
Tom

[storyinframes]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Submarines tow a long inductively-loaded antenna for ..... They mention "more than 28 miles of over-head signal transmission line".

If I told you more I'd have to kill you.

28 miles of overhead lines for Tx! WoW! I should have guessed that but somehow couldn't to co,e to such astronomical figures. Amazing. Thanks for the info. Didn't open the PDF files, I am not in an academic mood now :-p
Cheers

[storyinframes]

Originally Posted by atoll

the future is actually going to be quite different from what you think!

all these technologies require rare earth metals and guess who controls most of them!

90% of world's rare earth is controlled owned by CHINA. So... :-)

[foolishsailor]

I have both ssb and sat phone amd they are not equals. It is not an either or contest, they each have a complementary purpose.

But lets be honest, it is not 3k for a sat phone setup. I paid €400 for a used motorolla 2 years ago with external antenna and thats it. Works brilliantly even in deep blue water.... A far cry from the 5k all in i paid for my ssb/antenna.

But like i said, for me at least, they both have a purpose.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

I paid €400 for a used motorolla 2 years ago with external antenna and thats it. Works brilliantly even in deep blue water.... A far cry from the 5k all in i paid for my ssb/antenna.

New v. used? Hardware v. installed? Apples to apples please.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

New v. used? Hardware v. installed? Apples to apples please.

I paid ~$2800 US in 2010 for a new Iridium 9555 with a below deck install which included a Iridium mount with power input, a remote antenna, and a handset. I installed the unit myself in about 3 -4 hours.

We also purchased and installed a new ICOM SSB with antenna tuner for about ~$3000 US Did not buy a new Pactor3 modem to get digital data for $1800. Installation was significantly more time consuming and technically challenging to do it right. I would guess it took about 15 hours. The insulated backstay and ground plane were already in place. These two items would have upped the cost and install time.

Apples to Apples

Iridium - no learning curve. Worked out of the box like a cell phone. Installed XGATE on computer to efficiently download GRIBs. Worked everytime all the time and on our schedule. Could call family and friends whenever we wanted day and night.

SSB - very unsatisfactory, signal strength was unreliable, unknown parties from far away places stepping on Herb's channel. Could not get weather reliably. Cannot take the SSB if one needs to get in the life raft. Looks nice in the chart table. Using the SSB went into the too hard and too much hassle category. I feel we wasted the money on it.

[bill352]

Originally Posted by teejayevans

IF you know what channel(s) they are on, they have a emergency channel (121.500), but I'm not sure what the policy is for monitoring it in flight.

Retired now, but when I was flying, VHF radios in commercial aircraft automatically monitored 121.5 all the time. May have changed, but I doubt it.