Raymarine wheel drive SD6000 issue

[RigelKent]

The manual linked above seems to describe more configurations than the pocket manual I got with the unit I bought last June. I'm not sure if I can access the same configurations... when the sales agent configured it put my boat through various s-turns and circles, all very automatic. So I haven't tried looking at the individual configurations on their own - if they still exist.

'Cheating' would be Raymarine creating an AP that requires you to constantly pay attention to the rudder indicator to keep the autopilot on course. Seems like the wheel on its own (without wheel pilot) would be a better alternative!

I could install rudders sensors on top of my quadrant (instead of the normal way hanging down from the quadrant) but I'd have to remove a floor panel in the cockpit sole that protects it and lets people walk over it. Could possibly live without it.

Anybody with a RM wheel pilot and rudder sensors that is performing well?

[Opie91]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

I'm not so sure that the course computer no longer cares where the rudder is. On my control head, there is a display along the bottom that tells where the course computer THINKS the rudder is (or more accurately, how hard over the rudder is).

I probably should have said it does not weigh where the rudder is as much as it used to. The unit should work just fine without a rudder reference. Mine does and it is a older S1G unit (G for gyro). If it is not a gyro unit you NEED a rudder reference.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

About rudder sensors... Yeah RM did away with them a short while back. I'll bet some engineer of theirs figured that since the control hardware could count motor steps, and each step was X degrees of a wheel turn, why not eliminate the encoder (rudder sensor) and save the company $. Problem is, these cheapo systems are easily overpowered by moderate-light conditions, and the motors lose steps.

If this is your friend's problem, one thing he can try is to keep an eye on the rudder position indicator on the control head. If it 'drifts' out of whack, go to standby, then re-engage the pilot. That will reset the computer WRT the rudder position.

I don't know.
I have not seen one without a rudder position indicator. Can't imagine it working without one in any conditions.

He said it holds for about 2 minutes and then turns to port.

Tack (port or starboard) makes no difference so weather helm would not be an issue I would think.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Opie91

Raymairne did away with the rudder feed back when they put the gyros in the course computers. The computer uses the gyro to maintain course and really does not care where the rudder is.

Ahah!

Thanks.

Much newer system than the one I had on my Gemini.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by kmaz

Just had the same issue with an identical unit. Mine started misbehaving at the end of a brutal 14 day passage. The symptoms were erratic behavior and a change in both the feel and position of the clutch lever.

Opened the wheel-drive and found it to be caked with salt crystals.

The fix is to clean and lube or purchase a new wheel-drive. Replacement drives can be had for $4-500 from a Raymarine dealer.

interesting. And odd.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by RigelKent

The manual linked above seems to describe more configurations than the pocket manual I got with the unit I bought last June. I'm not sure if I can access the same configurations... when the sales agent configured it put my boat through various s-turns and circles, all very automatic. So I haven't tried looking at the individual configurations on their own - if they still exist.

'Cheating' would be Raymarine creating an AP that requires you to constantly pay attention to the rudder indicator to keep the autopilot on course. Seems like the wheel on its own (without wheel pilot) would be a better alternative!

I could install rudders sensors on top of my quadrant (instead of the normal way hanging down from the quadrant) but I'd have to remove a floor panel in the cockpit sole that protects it and lets people walk over it. Could possibly live without it.

Anybody with a RM wheel pilot and rudder sensors that is performing well?

I don't see a link.

[anotherT34C]

I did a little poking around the net, and it seems that the RM AP's work "much better" if you add a rudder sensor.

The sensors seem to run about $350. They look to be simple 5K potentiometers, so you can probably save a few bucks if you feel like tinkering around. Found this exchange;

Rudder angle indicator - Raymarine Technical Forum

[Opie91]

Originally Posted by anotherT34C

I did a little poking around the net, and it seems that the RM AP's work "much better" if you add a rudder sensor.

Could you reference where you have seen that? Which Raymairne Autopilots? All? Many do not come with a sensor now. Raymarine techs have told me that it will take the information and use it, but is not dependent on it.

A gyro will give the autopilot far more information for course correction than a rudder feedback. Not saying the rudder input will not help, but the OP's problem should not happen with or without a rudder feedback.

As long as his autopilot is a gyro his problem lies elsewhere.

[Opie91]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Ahah!

Thanks.

Much newer system than the one I had on my Gemini.

Have him check the BELT. Make sure it is clean and has the proper tension. Look in the manual. Pretty sure the drive says to "Flush with clean water after use"

[anotherT34C]

Originally Posted by Opie91

Could you reference where you have seen that? Which Raymairne Autopilots? All? Many do not come with a sensor now. Raymarine techs have told me that it will take the information and use it, but is not dependent on it.

A gyro will give the autopilot far more information for course correction than a rudder feedback. Not saying the rudder input will not help, but the OP's problem should not happen with or without a rudder feedback.

As long as his autopilot is a gyro his problem lies elsewhere.

Most of what I've read re:rudder sensors concerned the X5.

I don't know for sure if the OP has the same symptom as I do (rudder indicator as displayed on the control head becoming lost WRT the actual rudder position), but I've learned that it's a fairly common issue, and an actual rudder sensor seems to help. I haven't yet been able to try it myself.

Maybe these rate gyros aren't quite up to the task, at least in the X5 models.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Opie91

Have him check the BELT. Make sure it is clean and has the proper tension. Look in the manual. Pretty sure the drive says to "Flush with clean water after use"

I will tell him.

Although I don't see why a dirty/clean belt will make it work for only two minutes and then turn to port.

[Therapy]

From him today.

-------------------------------------------
Sorry, I meant to get back to you this morning. I thought about the possibility of the motor being connected backwards, which is possible. So I checked the unit, while at anchor, I set auto to steer, then pressed the +- buttons to see if the wheel would turn the right way, I seemed to but still does not act right. If I press either of those two or three time, the wheel should turn hard over but it does not, it continues to steer in small increments. Just leaving the unit in auto, while at anchor, with the boat swinging gently in the wind, the wheel should correct to the swings, it does not, still keeps making small adjustments both ways. I will try this again on Tuesday when we are moving the boat, in case the boat needs to be moving for these things to work

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I don't understand why making small adjustments both ways is bad. I thought that would be a + sign.

[Stu Jackson]

Let’s go back in time a bit. In ye olden daze, RM made APs with NO gyros or rudder position sensors (RPS). They still make tiller pilots that work simply and reliably with JUST the fluxgate compass built in, or like my venerable ST3000. Simple and they worked. Mine still does!

Then they “came up” with this “improved” model of wheel pilot, starting with the ST4000 which simply drove skippers nuts. Since the “new, improved” model actually didn’t work, they added the RPS to make it work.

Since then, with the even “newer” models, they deleted the RPS by doing what? Going BACK to the old fashioned, tried and true way, of the simple fluxgate, or perhaps building the RPS into a different portion of the packages.

Why? To make the bloody units work!!! And not turn to port when ya wanna go straight!

Lovely bit of engineering stupidity, IMHO.

I recommend listening to and implementing the previous suggestions. In addition, reset the unit to default values, do a COMPLETE RECALIBRATION and a complete INITIATION sequence (i.e., taking the boat out and making big slow turns, like it says in the manual).

Good luck.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Let’s go back in time a bit. In ye olden daze, RM made APs with NO gyros or rudder position sensors (RPS). They still make tiller pilots that work simply and reliably with JUST the fluxgate compass built in, or like my venerable ST3000. Simple and they worked. Mine still does!

Then they “came up” with this “improved” model of wheel pilot, starting with the ST4000 which simply drove skippers nuts. Since the “new, improved” model actually didn’t work, they added the RPS to make it work.

Since then, with the even “newer” models, they deleted the RPS by doing what? Going BACK to the old fashioned, tried and true way, of the simple fluxgate, or perhaps building the RPS into a different portion of the packages.

Why? To make the bloody units work!!! And not turn to port when ya wanna go straight!

Lovely bit of engineering stupidity, IMHO.

I recommend listening to and implementing the previous suggestions. In addition, reset the unit to default values, do a COMPLETE RECALIBRATION and a complete INITIATION sequence (i.e., taking the boat out and making big slow turns, like it says in the manual).

Good luck.

Originally Posted by Therapy

I know of someone in the Caribbean now that is having issues as he is making his way North. Seems my suggestions are not what is wrong.

The following is our communication re the unit.

HIM;
"While motoring along I set Otto to steer while I raised the main. Course he held course for about two minutes, then turned off to port. I went back, straightened things out and tried it again. As with most things, if you repeat the same process you will get the same result, so Otto held course for about two minutes, then turned off to port. I had someone else steer while I raised the main. I tried a couple more times to get Otto to steer with the same result."

ME;
Most likely a loose/corroded wire junction – bet you know that.

Or 1. Rudder feedback sensor. 2. Course computer. 3. Fluxgate compass.

Less likely is someone put some metal near the compass.

HIM;
Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, it is a Raymarine wheel drive SD6000, (I think he means ST 6000) installed new last year, it lasted the season and quit ten miles from the marina in Ven with a total of 171 hours of use. I sent in the course computer, they checked and said not us. I wanted to send in the control head, but when I talked with them on the phone, again, not us. So I took the wheel drive unit off and when I removed the motor small copper parts fell out. I now have a new motor and the wheel again drives, but it will not hold a course.

As all connections are a year old, have all been removed and reinstalled in the past couple of months, I doubt there is any corrosion. Also the fluxgate compass is a long way from anything metal. It all worked last year, so I doubt it is the installation. Which is one of the problems, I installed it, so the dealers do not want to have anything to do with it and Raymarine keeps saying, it is your power source, not us.

When I swung the compass the system told me it had 2 degrees deviation, which is about right, so I think the fluxgate is working.

It does not have a rudder feedback sensor.

During the year there are only a few places where Otto would be nice, but the trip back from Ven, 3-5 days it is necessary.

Any suggestions will be appreciated. Tomorrow I will try to communicate with the Raymarine online forum, which has been less than helpful in the past.

I notice the newer units manuals do not provide any real troubleshooting help in the form of voltages to check, schematics etc.
Autohelm Raymarine: St6000plus St6000 Autopilot Control Unit, Owners Manual'
Other than pulling the board and looking for bad solder joints, I am not sure what to look at next.
And I thought all the units had to have a rudder position sensor.

Don't know when he swung it last.

Agree to "start from scratch" after this amount of time and trouble. But knowing some abut the company and some of the products and some of it's history I bet it is a major component failure.

[RigelKent]

Originally Posted by Therapy

I don't see a link.

Only link is if the rudder sensor is really required for the OP problem as well as my somewhat similar problem. Doesn't appear to be an absolute requirements as far as most of the comments. So I don't see a link anymore either