Raymarine Evolution autopilot - rudder angle reference over NMEA-2000?

[KompetentKrew]

Hello,

Does anyone know if the Raymarine Evolution autopilot can accept (and respond to) rudder angle reference sensors other than Raymarine's own, please?

Raymarine's M81105 rudder reference sensor, which is specified for the Evolution, contains potentiometers which are read directly by the ACU.

Simrad's RF25N rudder feedback unit, on the other hand, appears to transmit the rudder angle over NMEA2000.

Without boring you with the reasons (which I promise you are good ones!), I'm wondering if it's possible to mix the two systems - have the Raymarine Evolution AP / ACU accept (and act upon) rudder feedback data supplied over NMEA2000.

The manual for the the Evolution Autopilot (87180-6-EN.pdf) implies that this may be possible, but I don't think it says so explicitly. It says:

"Where there are multiple sources of rudder reference information the Evolution system components will ignore rudder inputs from any rudder reference units that are NOT connected directly to an Evolution ACU."

I am hoping to see an improvement by upgrading from my current SmartPilot ACU, as I find it does not steer to wind very reliably, and am prepared to upgrade quite a bit of other electronics at the time to facilitate this. But I can't use Raymarine's M81105 rudder reference sensor because I have a tiller.

[skipmac]

If you don't get the answer here Raymarine has pretty good tech support online. Join their forum, post a question (maybe search for previous questions on the same subject) and I have always gotten a reply from a RM tech the next business day.

https://raymarine.custhelp.com/

[KompetentKrew]

Thanks for the recommendation, but actually I tried asking Raymarine direct in the first place, and have had no reply in over 2 weeks. I think they instituted a new system - the old email address I used before no longer works, and you just get a mail bounce telling you to use the ticketing system, where my enquiry has remained unanswered.

I did find https://forum.raymarine.com before posting here, but there isn't a single thread on there less than a year old, so I thought I'd ask here instead.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by KompetentKrew

Thanks for the recommendation, but actually I tried asking Raymarine direct in the first place, and have had no reply in over 2 weeks. I think they instituted a new system - the old email address I used before no longer works, and you just get a mail bounce telling you to use the ticketing system, where my enquiry has remained unanswered.

I did find https://forum.raymarine.com before posting here, but there isn't a single thread on there less than a year old, so I thought I'd ask here instead.

Well that's disappointing. When I wanted to link my old RM Seatalk I instruments to my NMEA2000 network I posted and got great response. That was on the old forum so maybe the new system isn't as well supported.

Seems like things are going downhill at RM.

[Chotu]

Call them. They are extremely helpful and responsive on the phone.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by KompetentKrew

But I can't use Raymarine's M81105 rudder reference sensor because I have a tiller.

I don't understand your reasoning, the Simrad unit is physically almost identical to the RM unit, why would having a tiller make a difference.


What do you have at the moment as you say sailing to the wind is not as good as expected. The rudder feedback is not a major factor here more likely the amenometer is not calibrated or your settings are amiss. The RM "catamaran" setting does not always work well as it reacts too quickly when sailing by wind especially on a cat with boards. You should try the other settings before condemning the sensors.


You also need to account for rapid accelerations, another reason why a conventional wind vane does not work well on a cat. If you engage sailing to wind before up to speed the ap will have you sailing power curves continually bearing away as the apparent wind pulls ahead and then stalls or luffs up depending the acceleration.

[Tupaia]

Sorry - For some odd reason I had you sailing a cat, confused with someone else I had been speaking to with same issues, on a cat.

[Martkimwat]

I have the Raymarine EVO a/p on my vessel which has an open transom hung rudder, as such, an external potentiometer was not an option. I am in the process of installing a rudder ram from Holland supplied by a company called PCNautic. The units look very much like the ones used by Pelagic and are made in PRC and modified by PCNautic. They use an internal feedback system and also electrical limit stops which the Raymarine Tillerdrive does not have and which on occasion has tripped the A/p off when the drive has gone hardover for too long. The PCNautic unit I have chosen uses a 7 wire system If I recollect (might be 6). it is supposed to be quieter than the Raymarine unit and use less power as well. We'll see how it works. It was certainly cheaper than a replacement Raymarine tiller drive, around £220. In the US, I would imagine the Pelagic unit probably does the same thing and if you are US based then would be cheaper. The PCNautic unit is specified as a replacement unit for Raymine EVO and they also do ones to replace earlier Raymarine Tillerdrives associated with earlier Raymarine a/p systems as well as other brands.

[Martkimwat]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Well that's disappointing. When I wanted to link my old RM Seatalk I instruments to my NMEA2000 network I posted and got great response. That was on the old forum so maybe the new system isn't as well supported.

Seems like things are going downhill at RM.

Raymarine were recently (last two years) acquired by a Canadian company Flir Maritime. Even though they still have their main UK service and office HQ just up the road in Fareham, I have recently found that when I ring the number I have always used, it now gets routed to a North American telephone exchange, who are nowhere near as helpful as the UK tech support were. A great shame. I must admit that things started to go down hill even before that. I used to be able to just walk into reception and drop in a faulty unit, and often if they had a spare moment, would check it and sometimes sort it while I waited. Then they instigated a booking system and stopped personal visits so even though I wasn't far away, I had to send it by post (admittedly prepaid postage). In the past I have been on the phone for nearly an hour with Tech support whilst they talked me though a fault finding process. Not sure if they will do that now. (last time was about two years back)

[Martkimwat]

Are you having problems with poor heading control sailing up wind or or downwind or both? The instructions recommend using true Wind Angle for sailing downwind and Apparent Wind Angle sailing upwind. Not sure how it makes a difference but it does.

[sinnerman]

I have had good luck using their ticket system to get responses to my EVO autopilot questions. The same for my questions on their depth sounder equipment.

It may take them several days to respond, but I always got an answer. And if their answer is not complete, you can keep the ticket open and ask further questions until you have all of your information.

The Raymarine documentation and their method of assembling the various components to put together a "system" can be very confusing.

The EVO uses Raymarine's "SeatalkNg" network . They sell a SeatalkNg to Nema 2000 adapter, but the question is how do you pull the rudder angle position indicator's data off the network, and is it NEMA 2000 format so you can read it...

Raymarine can answer all of this.

Cheers

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

I have the Raymarine EVO a/p on my vessel which has an open transom hung rudder, as such, an external potentiometer was not an option. I am in the process of installing a rudder ram from Holland supplied by a company called PCNautic. The units look very much like the ones used by Pelagic and are made in PRC and modified by PCNautic. They use an internal feedback system and also electrical limit stops which the Raymarine Tillerdrive does not have and which on occasion has tripped the A/p off when the drive has gone hardover for too long. The PCNautic unit I have chosen uses a 7 wire system If I recollect (might be 6). it is supposed to be quieter than the Raymarine unit and use less power as well. We'll see how it works. It was certainly cheaper than a replacement Raymarine tiller drive, around £220. In the US, I would imagine the Pelagic unit probably does the same thing and if you are US based then would be cheaper. The PCNautic unit is specified as a replacement unit for Raymine EVO and they also do ones to replace earlier Raymarine Tillerdrives associated with earlier Raymarine a/p systems as well as other brands.

Yes, I'm doing something similar.

I have been using a Pelagic actuator with my Raymarine SmartPilot ACU, and am very happy with it - I crossed Biscay with it and it copes perfectly with F6+, even over-canvassed.

The original manufacturer of these actuators is the Wuxi Hongba Mechanical Electrical Equipment Co, and I got in touch with them because I wanted a spare. It turns out that they offer these with a potentiometer for position sensing - you can determine the actuator position by measuring the resistance across two wires.

I am thinking to use a Arduino (Sailor Hat with ESP32) to interpret the potentiometer resistance, calculate the rudder angle and supply that information to the Raymarine Evo - providing, that is, the Evo accepts the rudder feedback position over NMEA 2000. This would be easier, I think, than building a circuit to make the resistance given by the WX Hongba actuator match that given by Raymarine's rudder feedback sensor.

I didn't intend to get into the details, as they weren't pertinent to the main question of does the Raymarine Evolution ACU accept (and act upon) rudder angle data over NMEA 2000? I mentioned Simrad's RF25N only as an example of an NMEA 2000 rudder feedback sensor, @Tupaia.

Whilst I am impressed with the WX Hongba tiller actuator, I prefer a name brand ACU over an open-source one, or the Pelagic or PCNautic ones. I have a bias towards Raymarine.

[Oceanride007]

I know that my ITC5 can take a rudder input. ITC5 converts analogue voltage to nmea 2000. Would be a bit odd if raymarine does not make it available to ACU.

Advantage however if you can connect analogue rudder reference direct to ACU is that you can power off Nmea network but still keep power on Autopilot.
Could be a bit more sluggish in response.

[stevead]

In the Raymarine Evolution autopilot manual that the OP mentioned, the appendix specifies that the ACU transmits and receives NMEA 2000 PGN 127245 which is the rudder sensor angle PGN.

While one could infer that the Raymarine ACU could use the Simrad RF25N as it's rudder reference, it might be prudent to confirm with Raymarine.

As an experiment, seeing as though you seem competent with electronics & software, why not generate your own NMEA 2000 PGN 127245 frames and see if the ACU accepts them ?

[KompetentKrew]

Originally Posted by stevead

In the Raymarine Evolution autopilot manual that the OP mentioned, the appendix specifies that the ACU transmits and receives NMEA 2000 PGN 127245 which is the rudder sensor angle PGN.

Thank you, that's very helpful.

Originally Posted by stevead

While one could infer that the Raymarine ACU could use the Simrad RF25N as it's rudder reference, it might be prudent to confirm with Raymarine.

Yes, I think I'll have to bite the bullet and call them tomorrow or Monday. I watch the cost of every dime, so it's frustrating they won't just respond to email.

Originally Posted by stevead

As an experiment, seeing as though you seem competent with electronics & software, why not generate your own NMEA 2000 PGN 127245 frames and see if the ACU accepts them ?

Primarily the fact that I don't have one to try it on!

I have an earlier model of Raymarine ACU at the moment, the SmartPilot, and am considering the upgrade. I'm pretty much sold on it - I'm biased towards Raymarine ACU and i70 instrument displays - but I think rudder feedback is a key issue and I'd need to consider offerings from B&G or others if this won't work.