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06-10-2024, 12:12
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 181
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Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Hoping someone knows the answer to this.
We recently upgraded a bunch of instruments and put in a new STng network. It is part of a phased upgrade of the yacht.
We have a DY AIT5000 AIS/GPS connected to the STNG network via N2K we also have a number of ST1 devices on the network that are bridged through a STng to ST adaptor.
Our main plotter is at the chart table and is a PC it talks to the network using a USB to NMEA converter. All is well and route info is shared onto the STng network BTW DTW etc. etc. and displays perfectly on the E80 and i70 displays and the P70s AP Head UNTIL we plug in the Raymarine Axiom display at the helm.
Then the instruments display no route info. We are beginning to regret investing in the Axiom MFD. It seems it is not a very good network citizen at all. Despite having wifi you can't consume any wifi nav data from the yacht's wifi cloud. It won't connect as a client on the yacht network.
But that is an aside. On the STng network there is route information. But the Axiom will not show it and as soon as it is powered on neither will the i70's or the P70S. There does not seem to be any way to configure the Axiom as a slave device either
Does anyone know how to make this MFD work in a mixed network?
Ideally, we want it to display the navigation info Waypoint and route info that is being pumped into the network from the Nav station at the chart table.
Any help is appreciated.
Cheers
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07-10-2024, 01:59
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 774
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Probably under the Data Sources selection, although not sure if whatever it is that you are using on your PC will be recognized, nor whether it even allows you to select a data source for navigation information.
Re, WiFi, I don't believe that the Axiom transmits NMEA 0183 data over its WiFi connection, IIRC it is only for mirroring the Axiom display to the Raymarine app on a table/phone.
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07-10-2024, 02:59
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 181
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevead
Probably under the Data Sources selection, although not sure if whatever it is that you are using on your PC will be recognized, nor whether it even allows you to select a data source for navigation information.
Re, WiFi, I don't believe that the Axiom transmits NMEA 0183 data over its WiFi connection, IIRC it is only for mirroring the Axiom display to the Raymarine app on a table/phone.
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In reality, it would not recognise the PC it should recognise the ST to STng converter. Which BTW it does for GPS and AIS data! The i70 and P70s are happy to display the navigation data until the Axiom is powered on. Then they display nothing. I am not interested in the Axiom transmitting 0183 just listening and displaying data that is already on the STng network.
Such a stupid product. I can see this being yet another one of these on ebay soon once I have exhausted all investigations into it working sensibly.
Cheers
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07-10-2024, 07:23
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2023
Location: British Columbia
Boat: Hunter 380
Posts: 93
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
What happens if you unplug the pc plotter and use the axiom as a plotter? If that works, you have a device ID conflict.
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07-10-2024, 07:26
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: New England
Posts: 7
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Full disclosure...I am with Raymarine.
I suspect the problem you are experiencing might be caused by both the Axiom and the E80 being connected to the Ethernet-based SeaTalk HS/RayNet network. That configuration is not allowed.
Many upgrading customers try this configuration hoping to be able to share a radar scanner or sonar module between the Axiom and E-Series devices. Unfortunately, this is not possible.
Disconnect either the Axiom or the E80 from the high-speed network and I think you will get communication across the SeaTalk/SeaTalk NG networks.
Axiom does not broadcast navigation data over Wi-Fi, and can't receive navigation data over Wi-Fi. Its Wi-Fi access point is used to join Axiom to an Internet hotspot, for screen mirroring with the Raymarine app, for wireless HDMI using Miracast to a compatible receiver or SmartTV, or for connecting to a Quantum radar scanner.
__________________
Jim McGowan
Raymarine Electronics
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07-10-2024, 11:24
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 181
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McGowan
Full disclosure...I am with Raymarine.
I suspect the problem you are experiencing might be caused by both the Axiom and the E80 being connected to the Ethernet-based SeaTalk HS/RayNet network. That configuration is not allowed.
Many upgrading customers try this configuration hoping to be able to share a radar scanner or sonar module between the Axiom and E-Series devices. Unfortunately, this is not possible.
Disconnect either the Axiom or the E80 from the high-speed network and I think you will get communication across the SeaTalk/SeaTalk NG networks.
Axiom does not broadcast navigation data over Wi-Fi, and can't receive navigation data over Wi-Fi. Its Wi-Fi access point is used to join Axiom to an Internet hotspot, for screen mirroring with the Raymarine app, for wireless HDMI using Miracast to a compatible receiver or SmartTV, or for connecting to a Quantum radar scanner.
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Not sure where you got Raynet/HS connection from. We don't use it at all. The E80 is connected directly to the radar and we use that if we need to as a radar head navigation data display.
Other than that the E80 is a client and simply displays data on the network. Which is what the Axiom should be doing. As soon as I power on the Axiom we lose Nav data on the i70's and the E80 and the Axiom is very selective at what it displays. It seems quite happy to consume the AIS data and display it on the chart, but not the route information that is on the network. WP info BTW DTW etc.
Cheers
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08-10-2024, 03:01
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 774
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Half of me is intrigued, the other half doesn't care.
Quote:
Our main plotter is at the chart table and is a PC it talks to the network using a USB to NMEA converter
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Could you explain how the PC is actually connected to your Seatalk/Seatalk ng network. As we all know, Seatalk & Seatalk ng are not NMEA 0183. Do you mean that your PC's USB to NMEA Converter is in fact a USB to NMEA 2000 converter, which is in turn connected to the Seatalk ng network using a NMEA 2000 to Seatalk ng adapter cable.
Quote:
The i70 and P70s are happy to display the navigation data until the Axiom is powered on.
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Have you confirmed the Data Source settings on the i70 and p70?
However as I stated previously, I am unsure whether Raymarine allows you to select the source for Navigation data if multiple sources are present.
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08-10-2024, 05:09
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 181
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
HI, a bit more info.
Our AVNAV server is connected via USB to the Digital Yacht AIT5000 via USB it consumes AIS and GPS info from the AIT5K. It is also connected via usb to a E85001 NMEA to ST1 bidirectional converter. It consumes all of the data on the ST1 network and sends back route information from the AVNAV server.
Elsewhere on the network there is a ST1 to STng converter that acts as a bridge between the ST1 and STng networks. It is connected at the 400G Course Computer.
The AIT5K also sends out AIS and GPS data onto the STng network directly via an N2K connection onto the STng network. The E80 is also connected to the Stng network via a E80 to STng cable.
At the helm there are 2 I70's and 1 P70S AP Head these are connected to the STng network and there is also an ITC5 which has the wind, Depth, Speed, temp sensors connected to it.
All is well and the AVNAV provided route info is sent out to the network perfectly it also receives all of the STng provided sensor data, widn depth etc. perfectly. The i70's are able to show GPS, WP, DTW, BTW etc. The AP head is able to follow the route to the WP no problem.
Switching on the Axiom changes all of that. The I70's no longer display route info, and neither does the E80 or the P70s the Axiom even though it is consuming the GPS and AIS data quite happily is ignoring the route info and it seems somehow blocking the route info for the other instruments.
It is in short a piece of seriously overpriced crap. Unless I am missing something and someone has the magic answer to make this £1,300 screen useful.
Cheers
Spart
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08-10-2024, 08:48
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 774
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
With the Axiom powered off and navigation data being provided by the PC, what do the I70 displays and P70 pilot controller show as their data sources?
If they do display sources for navigation data, presumably it would be the ST/ST ng converter (even though the data originates from the PC which is in turn converted by a NMEA 0183/Seatalk converter)
When the Axiom is powered on, what do the I70 displays and P70 pilot controller now show as their data sources?
Is there the capability of disabling automatic data source selection and manually selecting the data sources?
My assumption being that navigation data sources are shown on the displays in the same way that position, depth, wind and speed are.
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08-10-2024, 08:55
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Urbanna, VA
Boat: Lagoon 380
Posts: 378
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
As far as I know when an Axiom is on the network it is the master. If you have two one is the master the other a slave. They take data from devices like wind, depth, speed, etc, but not navigation. Not the way they were designed to work.
Cheyne
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08-10-2024, 09:28
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 181
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheyne
As far as I know when an Axiom is on the network it is the master. If you have two one is the master the other a slave. They take data from devices like wind, depth, speed, etc, but not navigation. Not the way they were designed to work.
Cheyne
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Yes, that was my fear. And yet they are capable of operating as a slave. Raymarine products are terrible network citizens.
Moot now anyway it is now back in it's box and back off to the supplier for a refund!
Next gen waterproof daylight readable tablet here we come.
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08-10-2024, 09:33
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 181
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevead
With the Axiom powered off and navigation data being provided by the PC, what do the I70 displays and P70 pilot controller show as their data sources?
If they do display sources for navigation data, presumably it would be the ST/STng converter (even though the data originates from the PC which is in turn converted by a NMEA 0183/Seatalk converter)
When the Axiom is powered on, what do the I70 displays and P70 pilot controller now show as their data sources?
Is there the capability of disabling automatic data source selection and manually selecting the data sources?
My assumption being that navigation data sources are shown on the displays in the same way that position, depth, wind and speed are.
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Yes they see the ST1 to STng converter as the source. Once the Axiom is powered on then you can't select the St1/STng convertor as the source. Yes taht was also my assumption but alas not so in the Axiom world. Terrible network citizen. Crippled ancient Android version also.
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09-10-2024, 14:03
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: New England
Posts: 7
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Axiom's ability to be a master or repeater mostly has to do with its Ethernet connection and how it interacts with other Axiom displays on that network. I don't think that is a factor here if you are not using its Ethernet/RayNet connection. I originally brought that up because its very common for people to try and connect both an Axiom and an older generation product together on the Ethernet network, most commonly in trying to get them to share radar. Since you're not doing that though, its not a factor.
Axiom's Master/Repeater status does impact its NMEA2000/SeaTalk NG connectivity, but only in that when there is more than one Axiom, the master unit handles all communications with that connection. Any data to be transmitted or received through the SeaTalk NG/NMEA2000 network goes through the master. The port on any Axiom repeater displays is inactive, even if connected.
Furthermore, the Master Axiom bridges the NMEA2000/SeaTalk NG communications over onto its Ethernet network. This simplifies the connections needed at remote Axiom displays. There is no need to run any networking to them other than the Raynet Ethernet.
Its difficult to say what is happening on your network. There could be a data loop somewhere. There could be a terminator missing from the SeaTalk NG network. You have quite a mix of new, old and older gear in there running through at least 2 generations of adapters. Something may very well be getting lost in translation along the way.
I would probably try to get the E85001 adapter out of the mix, if possible, and replace it with a more modern NMEA 0183 to NMEA 2000 adapter from Actisense, YachtDevices, or similar. That will make your PC-based nav system appear on the SeaTalk NG/NMEA 2000 backbone as its own device that will play nicer with all of the other devices present.
Axiom, i70, and all modern Raymarine devices support MDS, Multi-Data-Source Selection. MDS can be blocked though if there are older, non-MDS compliant devices on the backbone. For example, the E80 display is not MDS-compliant. You mentioned it is connected to the backbone using an adapter cable. The E80 runs a very early, pre-MDS version of NMEA 2000 (known then as SeaTalk 2.) You could also try reverting the E80 back to using its SeaTalk 1 connection only, and remove it from the SeaTalk NG backbone.
__________________
Jim McGowan
Raymarine Electronics
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10-10-2024, 02:03
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 774
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
Quote:
Axiom, i70, and all modern Raymarine devices support MDS, Multi-Data-Source Selection.
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I believe that is the cause of the original poster's (OP) problem. Once the Axiom is powered on and advertising itself as a source of navigation data, the automatic data source selection feature of MFD on i70 displays and p70 controllers defaults to the Axiom for navigation data, presumably NMEA 2000 PGN's 129283 and 129284.
It appears that there is no way to manually select a data source for navigation data, which according to the manual can be done for other sources such as depth, speed, wind & position.
This means that the presence of an Axiom precludes the use of third party devices as sources of navigation data.
As summarized by the OP, it seems that the Axiom is not a good network citizen.
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10-10-2024, 13:16
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2023
Location: New England
Posts: 7
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Re: Raymarine Axiom in a mixed system
While my system is not identical to OP, I put together a similar setup here on my workbench. SeaTalk NG network with an Axiom chartplotter.
My GPS source is a PC-based simulation outputting NMEA0183, connected through an Actisense NMEA0183 to NMEA2000 converter. The simulation allows me to have this system "underway" with full support for GPS, SOG, COG, Speed, Depth, Wind, Heading, Time and Date.
I also have a Windows 10 PC running OpenCPN, connected to the SeaTalk NG network through another Actisense NMEA0183 to NMEA2000 converter. I set it up to be able to both send and receive data using the NMEA 0183 EC prefix (electronic chart system.)
I have a pair of i70 color instruments, plus an i50 Tridata and i60 wind connected to SeaTalk NG. I also have an ST60 Tridata repeater, connected through a SeaTalk 1 to SeaTalk NG adapter.
I can create a waypoint or route on Open CPN. The waypoint information properly populates on the i70s, and on Axiom's various chart and navigation screens, as expected.
The master/repeater and MDS functions of the Axiom don't come into play at all as it is the sole Axiom, and all of my devices are MDS-compliant. I am seeing data everywhere I would expect it to be.
I can't replicate your system exactly, but my Axiom here is a well behaved network citizen in all regards. I am using some more modern hardware (Actisense NGW-1) to interface my older NMEA 0183 devices to the network. I'll try to locate an E80 here in the office and see if I can bring it in too.
__________________
Jim McGowan
Raymarine Electronics
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