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Old 21-02-2020, 12:40   #91
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingnut40 View Post
Just ordered one of these.Newest specs. Half the price of a digital yacht 5000

Look at this on eBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/352818631808

Looks pretty cool. Should be a great deal.

******
I’m all for online shopping and for beating the inflated prices of existing brand marine products. But...
1. This is an unknown Chinese “brand” - note the delivery time... April!! - no US compliance, support etc. No local firm standing behind it, no verified reviews, no Practical Sailor review....
2. There is a reason it isn’t available via known US or EU sellers. Even not at Amazon that will allow you 100% refund for months after purchasing.

Ebay has a very loose control on the seller’s reliability and that’s why the device is offered only there. AIS is not a cheap toy - I wouldn’t play games with critical safety products.

And I’ll be happy to be proven wrong here but for now wouldn’t take the risk.

Best of luck!
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Old 21-02-2020, 13:15   #92
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

I was just reading through the installation manual, downloadable at the naviom.com website and in the preamble it goes through the FCC Compliance Statements and under Industry Canada it states:

This device complies with Industry Canada Licence -exempt RSS standards(s)

And that:
This Class B digital apparatus complies with Canadian ICES-003

BTW if you missed it..... coming from Russia..... but who's kidding who..... that chips inside of your AIS will must likely be made in China or Korea or some similar place.

I'll still share any compliance labeling when I get it, it has left RU in a few days and is enroute to Canada.

Let's not be too judgemental about this until we know more..... but Russia is a real country with real ships too.

From what I gather ALL class A AIS's are certified but I did see something about exemptions on IC's website.

Time will tell if I "just" have a GPS with AIS reciever with wifi connectivity for the similar price of a reciever or if I actually have a transmitter too!!
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Old 21-02-2020, 13:19   #93
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

Exactly right flyingnut40

I got the Chinese Matsutec HA102 and had all the same comment, but it got to me quicker than anything from Australia,for half the price, simple install and easy to read manual.

Works a treat.

I'm sure you'll have a similar result.
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Old 21-02-2020, 14:57   #94
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

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The difference in transmitter power between Class-B SOTDMA (5-Watts) and Class B CSTDMA devices (2-Watts) is 4 dB. While there is no doubt that increased transmitter power will always improve the received signal in a given propagation path, I don't think you can establish with any certainty that Class-B CSTDMA devices cannot be received or will never be received by receivers aboard orbiting satellites.

If the goal of transmitting AIS is to improve the chances of the signal being detected and analyzed by an orbiting satellite, then the boat owner should move up to Class A devices at 12.5-Watts. The improvement over Class-B SOTDMA is another 4-dB, for a total improvement compared to Class-B CSTDMA devices of 8-dB. This puts that boat's AIS on an even footing with commercial vessels that are routinely received by satellites.

If there were a bias against AIS Class-B CSTDMA signals being received by orbiting satellites, it might be due to the slightly altered timing of their signals, more so than a 2.5 dB lower signal level. Because satellite AIS receivers can receive AIS signals from multiple self-organized networks which are not inter-coordinated, those signals often are analyzed by sophisticated methods to reduce the effects of packet collision. It is hard to know if the de-collision algorithms might affect the ability to find packets sent from Class-B CSTDMA transmitters.

Also, I am not aware of any limitation on antenna gain in AIS transmissions, and a disadvantage of 4 dB could be compensated by using more antenna gain. Of course, antenna gain comes at the expense of antenna pattern. A more concentrated antenna pattern might work against satellite reception for satellites appearing at high elevation to the transmitter antenna. Maybe one ought to use a special antenna with a high lobe to skyward for best AIS reception by satellite.

Probaby the best advantage to be gained for reception of AIS transmission by satellite is to invest in one of the newer proprietary AIS transmitters that uses an enhanced signal algorithm, developed by SRT.
Class A is significantly more expensive. So far haven't heard about B/CSTDMA being picked up by the satellite constellation but several positive feedback using B+/SOTDMA.

High gain is counterproductive on a sailing boat, as gain does nothing more than compressing the beam. If you heel too much, part of the lobe from a high-gain antenna might not even touch the water/other vessels. Not to mention, satellite contact would be more problematic.
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Old 21-02-2020, 17:11   #95
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
emtrak - $350

https://www.ebay.com/itm/em-trak-B10...4383.l4275.c10

you can buy a package including an antenna splitter for $539

but you have to cable these up.

Not sure I'm a fan of all the bluetooth on a boat. Any electrical interference (say lightning?) and your instrumentation goes out?
I went this route, and I believe the same seller. Shipped quickly and was programmed as I asked. USA certified and works great.
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Old 21-02-2020, 17:44   #96
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

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Originally Posted by GTom View Post
Class A is significantly more expensive. So far haven't heard about B/CSTDMA being picked up by the satellite constellation but several positive feedback using B+/SOTDMA.....
We use an older Vesper Watchmate 850 which is a standard CSTDMA Class B device. It was regularly picked up by satellite and available on MarineTraffic (to properly paid subscribers) during crossings of the Pacific, Indian, and Atlantic oceans. Average report period was about 6 hours, but I don't know how MarineTraffic filters that data.

Just one data point, but over a three-year period we were regularly tracked by satellite. Antenna is a standard vertical whip at the masthead, think 6dB, but would have to look that up to confirm.
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Old 21-02-2020, 20:13   #97
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

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Originally Posted by GTom View Post

High gain is counterproductive on a sailing boat, as gain does nothing more than compressing the beam. If you heel too much, part of the lobe from a high-gain antenna might not even touch the water/other vessels. Not to mention, satellite contact would be more problematic.
True! Gain = Directivity. They are the same thing. Any "gain" of 3 dB over an isotropic (a theoretical non-directional antenna) results in signal LOSS when your boat is heeled. Heel a bit with a "high gain" (directive) antenna, and you're transmitting to satellites on your windward side and submarines on the lee side. That's not a problem for vessels that don't heel -- and a real issue for monohull sailboats.

But "gain" sure does sound good in marketing literature!

On a monohull, what you want is a simple non-directional and efficient antenna. A 1/4 wave antenna if you have a groundplane (rare) or a 1/2 wave antenna with a quality matching coil (or matching stub as used in Morad antennas) if you don't have a ground plane.

Place that antenna as high as possible and at least one wavelength (2 meters) away horizontally from any metal object including other antennas. Nearby lifelines and rails are vampires sucking the power out of your antenna. Those objects will also distort the omnidirectional characteristic of your antenna. The top of your masthead is ideal. One antenna there only, please.

In short: on a monohull, antenna gain is bad. (The same is true on airplanes by the way, since they bank to turn.)

Patrick
N8QH

P.S. I always laugh when I see boats (mostly motor boats) that have high gain antennas on deck which are tilted back aft because it "looks cool." I'm sure it works really well for transmitting to the International Space Station but not so well to anything on the surface.
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Old 21-02-2020, 20:50   #98
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingnut40 View Post
I was just reading through the installation manual, downloadable at the naviom.com website and in the preamble it goes through the FCC Compliance Statements and under Industry Canada it states:

This device complies with Industry Canada Licence -exempt RSS standards(s)

And that:
This Class B digital apparatus complies with Canadian ICES-003

...
The FCC "compliance" paragraphs are just boilerplate about Part 15. If it doesn't have an equipment authorization number in the manual and on the FCC website then it isn't a compliant transmitter regardless of what the manual says. Part 15 is easy (and required) for just about every device. Your TV, which is a receiver, has to be Part 15 compliant. Transmitters have much more stringent requirements.

Believe the same is true of IC compliance, but not familiar with those regulations.
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Old 22-02-2020, 03:36   #99
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

I'm sure there are plenty of things in the world that are not compliant with the US FCC.

Does the rest of the world care?
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Old 22-02-2020, 04:09   #100
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

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Originally Posted by Pete7 View Post
True, other than a similar price. How important is the 5w of power compared to the B model with 2w? The New Horizons rocket that went to Pluto had a 10w transmitter, not bad reception given the huge distance to transmit back to earth.



So is the extra 3w for SOTDMA power really necessary?





Pete
The antenna on earth is either 34 or 70 meters in diameter and the receivers are liquid helium cooled. So yeah, 10 watts will get a signal from Pluto to a hundred million $ receiver on earth.

But the antenna on New Horizons is tiny by comparison so the transmitter from earth to New Horizons is 20,000 watts.

Power matters in transmitters especially when antennas are small.
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Old 22-02-2020, 04:15   #101
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
I'm sure there are plenty of things in the world that are not compliant with the US FCC.

Does the rest of the world care?
It should care. The FCC does not tolerate junk kindly and they are a very reasonable bunch of engineers. There are three reasons a company will avoid seeking FCC approval.

1) they know the equipment will not meet the standards.

2) they cannot afford to do the proper testing and file the data.

3) they are scammers who have no issue selling illegal radios in the U.S. so they avoid the cost of filing.

Any of these is a disqualifying attribute in my opinion.

The US market is too rich and large for any “real” company to just decide to avoid it altogether.
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Old 22-02-2020, 08:51   #102
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

Originally Posted by carstenb
emtrak - $350

That is class B CSTDMA, not B+, no wifi etc..... older different beast....

GUYS!!!!!

I had no idea that I could create this kind of a Sh!t storm by trying to share a bit of info..... wow!! And to beat so viciously in a state of ignorance is amazing!!

Until I can confirm otherwise I will assume:

1) No company on earth would attempt to build a piece of critical/ sophisticated equipment that is regulated without the necessary approvals in place.
2) The company would almost certainly base their unit on existing proven foreign sourced chipsets.
3) Any company contemplating such an endeavor would familiarize themselves with the regulations applicable to a worldwide audience knowing that they would be exposed in a heartbeat if their product is useless. I guess "I am that heartbeat" and if there is a problem I will be the first to blow the whistle on this company.... You are welcome!!
4) Assuming they know what they are doing.... it seems that this unit has an exemption from needing certification in Canada.... but do keep in mind that they did not intend to market this through an American Website (eBay.com) in the hopes that their customer base would be in Canada.
5) This is a brand new product and the FCC has not updated their list since last year..... what is the urgency level in the American bureaucracy for such matters.... I don't know.
6) If I were to find out that this unit is not legal to transmit with then I bought an AIS receiver, with wifi integration, NMEA 0183 and 2000 and Andriod compatability for about what I could have spent on many receive only AIS units.

Lighten up a bit guys..... the unit has left RU and is on its way here, I'll let you know when it gets here and if you really need to buy a class B+ with wifi TODAY, west marine will be happy to take your Boat Buck!
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Old 22-02-2020, 09:02   #103
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

ALSO, as a Ham I understand reasonably well that antenna gain flattens out the propagation lobes of antennas and that is generally considered to be bad or a heeling sailboat.
What I also know is that invisible things (radio waves) can do things that defy the underlying science. I love the Motorolla spectrum 5/8 wave FOR LAND use and I'm open to the short time it will take me to test it in the real world.
I will be putting an NMO mount on the radar arch for this purpose and if I want to swap it out for a 1/4 wave with fatter lobes to deal with the heeling then I have wasted what? NOTHING.
I'll still keep the antenna on board as a spare should I ever get dismasted and loose my ability to heel..... it'll be perfect to have the extra performance over the 1/4 wave.....
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Old 22-02-2020, 09:19   #104
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

Great - I'm sure we are all excited to find a more reasonably priced class B AIS with all the features and even happier one of us is taking the risk to evaluate it. Looking forward for your news!


Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingnut40 View Post
Originally Posted by carstenb
emtrak - $350

That is class B CSTDMA, not B+, no wifi etc..... older different beast....

GUYS!!!!!

I had no idea that I could create this kind of a Sh!t storm by trying to share a bit of info..... wow!! And to beat so viciously in a state of ignorance is amazing!!

Until I can confirm otherwise I will assume:

1) No company on earth would attempt to build a piece of critical/ sophisticated equipment that is regulated without the necessary approvals in place.
2) The company would almost certainly base their unit on existing proven foreign sourced chipsets.
3) Any company contemplating such an endeavor would familiarize themselves with the regulations applicable to a worldwide audience knowing that they would be exposed in a heartbeat if their product is useless. I guess "I am that heartbeat" and if there is a problem I will be the first to blow the whistle on this company.... You are welcome!!
4) Assuming they know what they are doing.... it seems that this unit has an exemption from needing certification in Canada.... but do keep in mind that they did not intend to market this through an American Website (eBay.com) in the hopes that their customer base would be in Canada.
5) This is a brand new product and the FCC has not updated their list since last year..... what is the urgency level in the American bureaucracy for such matters.... I don't know.
6) If I were to find out that this unit is not legal to transmit with then I bought an AIS receiver, with wifi integration, NMEA 0183 and 2000 and Andriod compatability for about what I could have spent on many receive only AIS units.

Lighten up a bit guys..... the unit has left RU and is on its way here, I'll let you know when it gets here and if you really need to buy a class B+ with wifi TODAY, west marine will be happy to take your Boat Buck!
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Old 22-02-2020, 09:24   #105
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Re: New price point for AIS class B+

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingnut40 View Post
Originally Posted by carstenb
emtrak - $350

That is class B CSTDMA, not B+, no wifi etc..... older different beast....

GUYS!!!!!

I had no idea that I could create this kind of a Sh!t storm by trying to share a bit of info..... wow!! And to beat so viciously in a state of ignorance is amazing!!

Until I can confirm otherwise I will assume:

1) No company on earth would attempt to build a piece of critical/ sophisticated equipment that is regulated without the necessary approvals in place.
2) The company would almost certainly base their unit on existing proven foreign sourced chipsets.
3) Any company contemplating such an endeavor would familiarize themselves with the regulations applicable to a worldwide audience knowing that they would be exposed in a heartbeat if their product is useless. I guess "I am that heartbeat" and if there is a problem I will be the first to blow the whistle on this company.... You are welcome!!
4) Assuming they know what they are doing.... it seems that this unit has an exemption from needing certification in Canada.... but do keep in mind that they did not intend to market this through an American Website (eBay.com) in the hopes that their customer base would be in Canada.
5) This is a brand new product and the FCC has not updated their list since last year..... what is the urgency level in the American bureaucracy for such matters.... I don't know.
6) If I were to find out that this unit is not legal to transmit with then I bought an AIS receiver, with wifi integration, NMEA 0183 and 2000 and Andriod compatability for about what I could have spent on many receive only AIS units.

Lighten up a bit guys..... the unit has left RU and is on its way here, I'll let you know when it gets here and if you really need to buy a class B+ with wifi TODAY, west marine will be happy to take your Boat Buck!
It must be the long gloomy winter weather that has everybody attacking posts these days. I have seen it happening on many sites that are usually friendly.
I for one am greatfull for your post. Thank you for making the effort.

I am also very interested in this product and am looking forward to your review.
I am seriously considering this unit. If the display will work on a tablet over wifi it will remove compatibility issues trying to hook an AIS into my chartplotter.

Thanks again for your post!
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