New iPhones and the imminent death of the MFD

[Shrew]

I've fallen in the ocean twice in the last 6 years with my phone in my pocket. I accidentally dropped my wife's iPad into the ocean as well.

There is No Way I'm going to rely on either device as a primary navigation tool. Not because they can't do it, but for the previously mentioned reasons.

[peter57]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Apple, as usual, so far behind the competition.



https://9to5google.com/2017/08/28/sa...st-brightness/

We use my misuses old Samsung as a back up. Just in case we run out of starters for the BBQ. LOL

[barnakiel]

I can't see a phone replacing mfds ever.


These are two completely different things and they will co-exist not replace (each other).


And no we are not to see that quality Android tablets ever. Because the samrtphone killed the tablet (and strangled the small laptop).


Cheers,
b.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Apple, as usual, so far behind the competition.



https://9to5google.com/2017/08/28/sa...st-brightness/

Exactly. And no way would I trust my safety, the safety of my crew, and the safetly of my boat to a mobile phone. Good back up, but never my primary nav equipment. Marine electronics are just that. Mobile phones are consumer electronics - that's the difference in price. Hose down a mobile phone and see how it goes for navigating!

[BenBowSirocco]

My wife and I sailed with a father son team on a Dufor A9000 for a delivery, we made a very successful voyage from Florida to San Francisco Bay via the canal with nothing but tablets and phones two years ago. Had zero trouble in daylight. Some posters talk as if they dont have biminis and when the weather is crap- so is the lighting.

We had a tough mount, which we reinforced/attached to the helm, that allowed us to show the screen in any direction needed for the person on watch. Often we just tied a small dyneema string to its case.

The amount of available information, as well as the convenience of interfacing with the devices for routes/weather, multiple chart apps that are affordable and user added/updated, made it a very simple decision once you included cost for us.
-A pair of Ipad mini's bought as refurbs from the store, including 2 separate navigation apps each, and cases (we ended up preferring the inexpensive waterproof bags actually since they work wet) cost less than a thousand dollars. We also had 3 phones as backups using free nav apps- since they are backups this was also non issue.

I am with the OP. I find it silly to shell out thousands of dollars for the unit, plus the additional hundreds for the poorly updated chart cards for a device that I find difficult to use and is purposely outdated every three years by its parent company.
Another thing that frustrates me was the subscriptions to get "updates" for the charts yo have to pay for. I personally consider much of that sort of tactics as straight robbery since the vast majority of the data they started with and are using was paid for by tax dollars and currently incoming data is from the oil industry in many cases.

We did add an Iridium GO and a small subscription for the voyage, but this was certainly optional.

For some seemingly impossible loss of the GPS system as a whole, we had large scale charts for planning and a compass. Computer printer paper charts and handheld GPS (plenty of spare batts) in the ditch bag.

Going to sea in a small boat has inherent risks. I and my sailing friends accept the risks associated to our version of safe navigation.
I hope for increased competitiveness within the market by tablets, which will hopefully decrease profit margins of existing major players, especially the cost of chart data and until then will continue to use what offers the most versatility and benefits for the best price.

[Tillsbury]

The thing that affects the mfd manufacturers is that you don't need big or multiple displays any more. One small mfd is easily sufficient, as emergency backup or radar display.

[ramblinrod]

Chuckle chuckle.
Two years ago, in response to a similar declaration, I went to An established marine store and picked up an Axiom 7 with Navionics for Canada/US and Bahamas for $1200. Then I went to Best Buy and picked up an iPad with internal GPS, Lifeproof case, 3 year extended warranty and downloaded Navionics app. Cost $1200.

The MFD is mounted securely to the helm by the supplied bracket. Nobody makes an iPad bracket this robust. Custom iPad bracket $500.

So on a sunny day with the connector opened up between dodger an bimini, bobbing and weaving to read the iPad. Axiom? Turned re brightness down.

So then the iPad battery died at a most inconvenient time. Axiom? Powered by house bank with numerous power charging sources.

So I flipped open the Lifeproof case door to charge the iPad. Wave hit the side of the boat and splashed the cockpit. Axiom is still working flawlessly. iPad and various mobile phones down below with Navionics on them, Axiom with quad core processor that updates faster than I can swipe, still at the helm.

By design, an MFD is not a fragile mobile device whose sole purpose is to meet the popularity desires of 13 year old girls, so they can be sold by the millions.

Mobile devices are the poorest possible design for the marine environment: fragile, flakey, slippery, light, poor user interface, poor readability, short warranty, unsupported after 18 months from initial release.

Quite frankly, they are the poorest design for an adult communication device or camera. But 13 year old little girls have to have the latest to be popular, so the products thrive.

[CarlF]

Bit of marketing hyperbole by Apple. The Iphone 11 Pro is really 800 nits. The 1200 nits is only when looking at photos. (The more reasonably priced Iphone 11 is 720 or so - same as the X).

You're still going to be able to see your chartplotter a whole lot better in the cockpit.

Here's are the specs from the Apple site:

[Matt Johnson]

We've been using a Google Pixel 2XL as the primary chartplotter for the past year and are so far loving it. Our B&G chartplotter has become the instrument, radar, AIS and autopilot display.... but nothing to do with charts.

But I didn't choose this because it's the better solution... it was purely budget. The high cost of chart cards ultimately drove this decision.

The Navionics SD cards for the areas we've sailed in the past year (4 different card areas) would have been well over $1000, while the charts for the phone were maybe $150. With some of that savings we've also purchased the CMap charts/app and guidebooks for each of these areas- we typically do not have the budget for a lot of guide books.

I don't agree with the glowing reliability statements made above for consumer level marine electronics. But even if a phone/tablet doesn't beat the chartplotters with quality, it will with quantity. Like everyone, we have years worth of phones that run these apps as back-ups aboard. Keep them all up to date with charts, and you're good to go if one goes over the side.

The key to making this a usable solution has been to pull heading and GPS information from the Vesper AIS and not the phones internal sensor. Now when I pick up the phone, the bearing no longer moves unless the bow of the boat does too. This has dramatically improved our spacial awareness.

If anyone wants to send us a glass bridge with the World ENC on it, I'll be happy to switch

Matt

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by David B

Marine electronics are just that. Mobile phones are consumer electronics - that's the difference in price. Hose down a mobile phone and see how it goes for navigating!

No problems

https://www.tomsguide.com/us/picture...of-phones.html

[jmh2002]

The Samsung Galaxy Tab Active Models provide some useful specs for marine use. Ruggedised, IP68, etc.

The older models were 8in, but the new Galaxy Tab Active Pro recently announced is 10in.

https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_gal...news-39048.php

https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_gal...e_pro-9850.php

Windows OS is a consideration though, if wanting to run OpenCPN's plugins.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by tarian

So why does OPENCPN have so many users ,

Ummm, because it’s free.

Who doesn’t like to get somethin’ fer nuthin’?

But just because it is free (well plus the price of the laptop) doesn’t make it a direct substitute for a dedicated MFD.

It most certainly is not.

Mobile devices and laptops with nav software are great toys and backups to a dedicated MFD.

Can one cross an ocean with deficient Nav equipment? Of course, at least some times. However, check any chart and the sea bottom is littered with wrecks that wouldn’t be there if a dedicated MFD were aboard.

Last year on vacation I rescued 2 boats dragging at anchor in the middle of the night. When I awoke the occupants, neither had dedicated MFDs.

One found their tablet after about 10 minutes of scrambling. The wife fell asleep on it watching Netflix. Battery was dead. After 5 more minutes, then guy could figure out where he was and if he was safe. Dragged about 300 meters through rocky shoals.

The other, after they got them off the rocks, drove back onto rocks 2 miles away. During the MayDay call, the coat guard was advised that “The direction finder battery was dead”.

Disgusting lack of seamanship.

I got soaked, used my dinghy and gas, risking my neck for those jerks.

A mobile device (or any quantity aboard) is not a direct sub for a proper MFD.

[jimp1234]

Timely topic for me as I’m debating the upgrade of the 20 year old Raymarine RL70C chartplotter that was installed on my recently acquired boat to a newer MFD. I work in technology and there’s no doubt in my mind that the iPad UI is far superior to any MFD that I’ve seen on charter boats, or on friends boats. I realize that some of that is just learning curve and time spent figuring out the system. Of course you don’t have to “figure out” or read the manual for an iPad. And chart plotters fail as well.

On my recent shakedown passage from Florida to Annapolis the RL70C chart plotter died on day one (GPS failed but fortunately radar kept working), and we primarily used iPads to navigate for the rest of the passage. Because I’m a cautious fellow doing my first ocean passage on this (to me) new boat we had multiple iPads (w cellular service so they had internal GPS), all relevant paper charts, crew logging Lat/long every change of watch, and we even “swung the ship” on day one to get a deviation chart for the pedestal compass in case we had to navigate with DR’s using paper charts. And as a last last resort I had my Sextant with sight reduction tables. At some point I will install a Vesper SB8000 for AIS which we didn’t have.

All that being said I’m going to get a new MFD mostly because I don’t think there is a robust radar system that uses a tablet, and I worry that my 20 year old radar system will konk out at the wrong moment. I think Furuno has a wifi system that will talk to a tablet but people I’ve spoken to have not been impressed. On the 0300 watch trying to figure out which way that “big steel thing” out in the dark is heading, I find it comforting to be able to compute a CPA and know for certain that sucker isn’t on a collision course with us.

And finally, from my experience in tech, I don’t trust any technology, (even paper charts can get wet if you forget to close the hatch over the Nav station), so completely separate technologies running in parallel seems prudent to my way of thinking.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by jimp1234

Timely topic for me as I’m debating the upgrade of the 20 year old Raymarine RL70C chartplotter that was installed on my recently acquired boat to a newer MFD. I work in technology and there’s no doubt in my mind that the iPad UI is far superior to any MFD that I’ve seen on charter boats, or on friends boats. I realize that some of that is just learning curve and time spent figuring out the system. Of course you don’t have to “figure out” or read the manual for an iPad. And chart plotters fail as well.

On my recent shakedown passage from Florida to Annapolis the RL70C chart plotter died on day one (GPS failed but fortunately radar kept working), and we primarily used iPads to navigate for the rest of the passage. Because I’m a cautious fellow doing my first ocean passage on this (to me) new boat we had multiple iPads (w cellular service so they had internal GPS), all relevant paper charts, crew logging Lat/long every change of watch, and we even “swung the ship” on day one to get a deviation chart for the pedestal compass in case we had to navigate with DR’s using paper charts. And as a last last resort I had my Sextant with sight reduction tables. At some point I will install a Vesper SB8000 for AIS which we didn’t have.

All that being said I’m going to get a new MFD mostly because I don’t think there is a robust radar system that uses a tablet, and I worry that my 20 year old radar system will konk out at the wrong moment. I think Furuno has a wifi system that will talk to a tablet but people I’ve spoken to have not been impressed. On the 0300 watch trying to figure out which way that “big steel thing” out in the dark is heading, I find it comforting to be able to compute a CPA and know for certain that sucker isn’t on a collision course with us.

And finally, from my experience in tech, I don’t trust any technology, (even paper charts can get wet if you forget to close the hatch over the Nav station), so completely separate technologies running in parallel seems prudent to my way of thinking.

That's exactly what I would do in your situation. Mfd for radar means you have a dedicated display for it, which can also act as a backup chart plotter. Xb8000 to fixed iPad at the helm for most purposes, to other ipads and iphones as backup, and to chart table computer running opencpn for planning/routing.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Ummm, because it’s free.

Who doesn’t like to get somethin’ fer nuthin’?

But just because it is free (well plus the price of the laptop) doesn’t make it a direct substitute for a dedicated MFD.

It most certainly is not.

.

It most certainly is for us.

We have a dedicated marine plotter on a big screen and opencpn on a big screen.
Opencpn is our #1 choice due to simple mouse driven hover-click commands vs menu-toggle-enter-toggle-enter commands.