New iPhones and the imminent death of the MFD

[Cylon60]

I'd agree.. MFDs have a lot of life left in them .. iPads and such devices are designed to be sexy, stylish, fit in the back pocket or shoulder bag..


I've never thought of them as useful in any weather of significance above deck..

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by bluenoser613

In no way is a mobile phone a replacement for a MFD.

A MFD is a ruggedized, fit for purpose device. It must be reliable and responsive. Mobile devices are not this.

My RM C-80 has died a couple of times. My iPhone has not.

[FabioC]

I use two iPads aboard in addition to the MFD on the boat.
The iPads are definitely superior to the MFD (in my case, B&G Zeus 2) for running sophisticated navigation apps (like Timezero or Navionics). Also, there is no comparison in resolution and size of the screen and in the user-friendliness of the UI.

However, I see three limitations with the iPads (or tablets in general) being used in the cockpit to augment the MFD.
1. The screens are really not made for outdoor use, and are only readable at certain orientations. Also, they do not read well if you wear polarized glasses. This is true, to different extent, with all tablets.
2. More importantly, they are awkward or even impractical to hold (for obvious reasons, especially the large ones) by the helmsman while steering. In many boats, adding holders near the helm is also impractical. This is especially true with the newer boats that have two wheels and a relative small stand for the wheels (or one that is integrated in the cockpit). Some holders, (e.g., holding arms), are not sufficiently secure, and the iPad can get in the way or even come off if it gets bumped accidentally in a maneuver.
With two wheels, in most boats, there is no good place to have a single holder. Moving the iPad from one holder to another is impractical.
3. The tablets are not waterproof. Even if they are, the touch screens do not work when wet. They do not work with most sailing gloves either. Adding a waterproof casing is bulky and in general makes the touch screen not very reactive even when it is not wet.

I am on a quest to find solutions (or at least improvements) to these issues, since there is no question that tablets have no match (potentially) as navigation aids in the cockpit and I am very interested to learn what other people have come up with to solve these problems.

[Emouchet]

Shorthanded, I consider the MFD as a mission critical device.

Yes, it is as expensive an a brand new iPhone, yes, i does only a few things, but it does it really good, under any condition as long as there is power available.

It is a set and forget, all what I am looking for a mission critical device.

Phones or tablet are great backup tough.

[Cylon60]

Hi Fabio.. I too have a Zeus system and it performed flawlessly on on the Transat. The only issue of significance was the problem of screen lock when a wave cover the touch screen display..


To Emouchets point this is a mission critical role on the boat so in my view no compromises...



We are in the era of Apps and this is reflected in the style of MFD software. Integration with BYOD type devices is there. The next evolution I would surmise is the introduction of portability of the robust MFD.



Currently, a BYOD type device achieves this in an amroured or military type hardended case I would suggest..


But I wouldn't trust them yet myself in this critical role..

[triibutu]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

- Go back to nmea 0183 sensors where possible. Nmea 2000 is too hard (expensive) to interface to computers.

Nothing hard or expensive interfacing NMEA2000 to computers. Easy way would be an iKommunicate Gateway for about $300 (still a lot cheaper than replacing all the sensors surely?) or a Raspberry Pi + SignalK + CANable for about 5 times less.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by Emouchet

Shorthanded, I consider the MFD as a mission critical device.

Yes, it is as expensive an a brand new iPhone, yes, i does only a few things, but it does it really good, under any condition as long as there is power available.

It is a set and forget, all what I am looking for a mission critical device.

Phones or tablet are great backup tough.

So why does OPENCPN have so many users , and those that go offshore me included, this is nonsense mission critical, the usual Marine Corps. telling us we must need something.
Simply Android tablet with OPEN on a stainless steel handle at helm held on with a bomb proof bracket , 12V USB waterproof connection so always power
24 inch monitor below deck with OPEN and Radar pug in running of an I5 processor all other instruments are NASA and single use so if one goes down the rest still work .
There was a story here some weeks passed with a yacth going in the Water at the Clyde with 4 very experinced sailors taking their boat up North after a refurb. 300 m out of the Marina they Ran aground .
Why they spent to much time looking at their MFDS , AIS. RADAR, and not were they were going , a simply bouy marked the channel which was not on their expensive charts , but was on the marina info and even a utube of how to go in and out .
The point is to many gadgets to much info for your brain to take in , and you forget the basics of seamanship , a good lookout , pre plan and stop looking at PIXELS

Most of my electronics and Computers came from EBAY all under $!500 for DEPTH, WIND,GPS,LOG, TABLET, 2 COMPUTERS ,
MAPS 2X FOR $27 for full UK Admirality , Navionics $210
you decide

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Emouchet

Shorthanded, I consider the MFD as a mission critical device.

.

You are kidding right?

I wonder how I could possibly have sailed tens of thousands of miles single handed with paper, hand held GPS and dead reckoning.

[Carver Power]

Putting to much stock in a phone.

[Squanderbucks]

I don't think Garmin, Raymarine, Simrad etc are worried about the new iPhones as a significant threat to their market share. I think the only places that something other than a dedicated MFD is considered is in the sailing community and small coastal and river runabouts.
No serious powerboater would try and operate his/her vessel with only a phone or tablet.
If you are moving slowly, only need speed, position data and little more then a minimalist approach is workable. However, many other boating activities such as fishing, exploring reefs and diving in shallow water, all absolutely require detailed bottom information only available with dedicated MFDs.

Anything bigger than 24 ft in the powerboat class will often have more than one MFD dedicated to some specific task - engine data, radar, navigation/routing data, weather (Sirius now-time or future predictions), and as a hub for entertainment.

Not everyone wants these all these features- but they are available and the ability of a MFD to serve as an expandable hub for these services makes them more easily to have connected and available.

And you can use your phone to view it's data, control the MFD, and actually control many of the attached devices if desired.

[Emouchet]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

You are kidding right?

I wonder how I could possibly have sailed tens of thousands of miles single handed with paper, hand held GPS and dead reckoning.

I mostly do coastal cruising. Being able to look at the map and follow a predefined route while at the helm is to me of great benefit, and makes thing easier.
No offense to paper charts. They are at the nav station down below, always ready as backup and fantastic for route planning.

I actually turned off the MFD during my last offshore passage. There was no point in getting ETA, XTE and other data.

[Squanderbucks]

Human beings are a crafty and resourceful lot and can figure their way out of many a situation.

From the days of paddling logs until now the next generation has always said - who needs a compass ( just look at the stars), who needs government sponsored charts ( my own are just fine), then sails and a sextant are all we need, etc. etc.

The floor of the ocean is littered with boats of all kinds over the millennia that tried doing everything "naked". It can be done - most of the time.

It's one thing to make furniture with old craftsman tools for the fun of it but venturing out on the open ocean with 17-18th century tools just because it can be done is not what I would consider prudent ( ask Davy Jones).

I think if our forefathers were given the choice of sailing the world with their chronometer and sextant or any one of the new MFDs available today the choice would not even be close.

As with all safety equipment - life raft, EPIRB, Satellite tracking, radar, etc - get the most you can afford -

[Pizzazz]

We have debated this many times on this forum. I love playing with my Garmin and Raymarine chartplotters, I do trust them. However, simple tasks are really hard on even the newest devices:

- Say, you want to go to the islands. On the phone, using an app like Sailgrib, you get wind, weather routing, starting times in a matter of seconds. Importing the route into the mission critical devices becomes a royal pain.

- Say, you are at Palmas, ready to start the ARC. Again, routing data is so much easier on the phone, you can easily update it on shore, via Iridium, etc. Moving any of this data to the chart plotter is a royal pain. Adjusting the route is very time consuming as well.

- Say you use SiriusXM in the US (which I do a lot). You have to do through a number of steps and switch between screens to understand what is going on and how to change the route. It is just old fashioned.

People make too big of a deal with sunlight visibility. Usually, if the sun is shining you look around not in the chartplotter... and as I mentioned in the beginning of the thread, the new devices have caught up with the brightness.

One idea on how to add buttons to the phone/tablet is to use these inexpensive bluetooth controllers. They have four arrows and an OK button. May be we can ask for an OpenCPN plugin that maps these buttons to common functions in the app. Now you have a $39 remote keypad.

It is the same with the auto GPS vs. Google maps. There are still benefits to looking at the built in car GPS but everyone is using Google maps/Waze. Don't get me wrong, I would love Raymarine to develop a nice weather routing app for the Axiom that overlays the wind on the chart, the routes and has an easy and free grip download pairing with the phone or Iridium Go. Garmin could even do it through the Inreach where the routing is done on their servers and the waypoints are sent via Inreach.

However, I have lost faith in the marine vendors... they just do not get it. Yep, I would keep a small Garmin and the C80 under the dodger but 85% of my activities are shifting towards the mobile devices. So instead of Raymarine selling me 2-3 devices for $1,000 each plus the integrated network they would get very little. It is not a question of cost even, it is a question of functionality.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Emouchet

I mostly do coastal cruising. Being able to look at the map and follow a predefined route while at the helm is to me of great benefit, and makes thing easier.
.

Easier yes
Mission critical I certainly hope not.

I hope not to be on the water near people who can't master the basics without a screen to stare at.

I don't use paper anymore and run 2 x 23 inch monitors with opencpn on one and cmaps on the other, but they are something to glance at and in no way "mission critical"

[dougweibel]

Pizzazz,

I agree with most all of your thoughts but reach an entirely different conclusion. The question is to have a MFD/Plotter or not.

Most people I know have a phone and also have a laptop or tablet. I agree that for planning, routing, etc. the MFD is not the tool of choice. Even if it were functionally equal or better I wouldn't want to be doing that stuff standing at the helm when I could be doing it sitting on a comfy settee below.

Again, almost all the sailors I know have and want instruments/transducers on their boat: wind speed and direction, depth, speed through water, radar, etc. You can also add AIS and other devices/functions; it is a given that you will want/have some sort of a network in the boat, at present probably nmea2000 + ethernet for radar and often wifi as well.

So, now the question is do I want a MFD. Since I'm going to have that network with transducers anyway the cost is only the MFD itself, some minimal amount of cabling, and possibly mounting. What do I get in return? A dedicated device hard-mounted at the helm with an interface that works well in rough offshore conditions. For me there is no question and the answer is yes.

I also have (including my wife's devices) two phones, two tablets and two laptops aboard, all of which have at least one sailing related program or app and most of which have quite a few and could "replace" our MFD. Still, the MFD is the device we want at the helm over all the others.