NASA ssb radio

[james pask]

Hi - Im new to SSB and curious to understand how they operate and if they are useful in Northern Europe , I'm based in Scotland with plans to head over to the Baltic and Europe - has anyone experience and views of the NASA TARGET HF3/W RECEIVER that they might share ?
Thanks in advance.
James

[atoll]

they are only as good as the antenna and the 12v power supply.
they seem to suffer a lot from poor reception and electrical interference.

my preference would be a small portable,battery operated with external antenna,the weather fax software you can get free on the internet or this forum has links.
something like one in the link
https://www.radioworld.co.uk/tecsun-...8aArAuEALw_wcB

edit lots of threads on this subject on the forum,just search for weather fax/ssb in the forum search box

[slug]

Originally Posted by james pask

Hi - Im new to SSB and curious to understand how they operate and if they are useful in Northern Europe , I'm based in Scotland with plans to head over to the Baltic and Europe - has anyone experience and views of the NASA TARGET HF3/W RECEIVER that they might share ?
Thanks in advance.
James

Looks like a nice radio

An all band receiver is a worthwhile addition

The choice is between Table top style or portable

The portables work great

Portables have the advantage of using internal flashlight batteries and can be isolated from your boats noisy electric system

Much Depends on your boat

Remember , with radio you need to sit in front of the unit seeking and tuning
In the nav station is a comfortable location , in your bunk is also a good location


The Alinco dc-r8 table top is well regarded

The Grundig satellite 750 is another nice table top

The crane skywave -ssb portable is a well regarded portable

Several choices in the sub 400 euro range

Remember to budget for a well thought out reception antenna

[ka4wja]

James,

Please save for money! Take atoll's advice...


I'm usually polite here-abouts, and rarely take a strident "know-it-all" approach, but here in this case of the Nasa Marine Target HF receiver I'm going to be blunt and direct...

1) It is a very poor receiver! I saw one (once), and believe me it's a pretty crappy receiver....you'd be much better off with a decent portable SW receiver w/SSB receive capability (as atoll mentioned).
Whether you choose a Tecsum, Katio, Sagean, or Sony.....you can find a nice portable HF ShortWave (SW) receiver that will work much better...



2) If you search and/or look at some links in the stickies above, you'll see some info on these....but also you'll see that successful HF receiving is all about received signal-to-noise ratio....and it's getting rid of all the "noise" that is radiated by so much of the consumer electronics we have in our lives today (including mobile phone chargers, solar charge controllers, etc., that you'd never think would cause issues), that is the trick in having easy-peasy HF radio communications, or even just listening to the SW radio!



3) Finally, depending on where you're planning on sailing, you might be better off with a dedicated NAVTEX receiver? Certainly in Europe, whether in the Med or N. Europe, NAVTEX coverage is good....
Although, I agree that having a weather chart in my hand (or on a screen) is much better than just reading a few lines of text....and, if you're venturing far offshore (> 200nm from land), and/or across oceans, then having HF WeFax reception is good...you need to decide what is best for you and your sailing/cruising...


Please take both of these last two points here (plethora of HF radio noise / RFI, and what weather info you need for your area), into consideration, before deciding on "how-to" get weather info/forecasts....

Whatever you decide, just don't buy a Nasa Marine Target HF receiver.


Fair winds.


John


P.S. You may wish to contact Dockhead here on Cruiser's Forum, as he sails your region....and he might have some up-to-date info on what weather services are best / easiest in that area....
Just be sure to tell him your budget, 'cuz it appears to me that you might be looking for an inexpensive solution....

{BTW, on a side note....years ago, we'd use the BBC shipping forecast on LW (190khz or 200khz?) all over the UK, Bay of Biscay, all the way to Gib...don't know if they're still on-the-air, but it was easy-peasy with a good SW receiver (a long time back, I added a VLF/LW converter to the first solid-state Yaesu SW receiver, the RFG-7, just for the BBC LW service, and it worked perfectly!!)}

[Westcliffe01]

in 87 when I was in the military and stationed in Northern Namibia I had a problem with my mail being intercepted by a few officers who had it in for me with the result that I had no communication with the outside world for 6 months. After that experience I went home on my first home leave, and I read my dads ARRL handbook from cover to cover and also studied hiw ARRL antenna handbook for the various wire antennas they described.


When I reported back, I brought with me come coaxial cable and an insulator to use for the center of the antenna. I made a long V antenna, 1.5 wavelengths long on each side and with about a 90 degree angle in the V with maximum directivity being south. Using this setup and a 25W portable battery powered military transciever that I was easily able to acquire, I was able to communicate with radio amateurs all over South Africa with the first contact being with a gentleman in Cape town. This was a great circle distance of 1000Nm on 25W and a piece of wire. It was certainly a help that we were just about at the peak of the solar cycle at the time in 87.


I think a key problem of HF communication on a sailboat is matching the antenna to the impedence of the transmitter. Thus it almist certain that one would need an antenna tuner, unless you bought a commercial whip antenna that had RC traps on it to make it work on the ham bands. Many people come up with an insulated wire that they use as a backstay and the surface of the ocean as the ground plane. That type of setup would definitely need an antenna tuner. It also works best if the tuner is at the end of the coax on the antenna feed point instead of being right next to the radio. But that suggests a remote control tuner in a marine environment, not such a simple matter.


I think trawler drivers have an easier time having a decent HF antenna since with the absence of most of the rigging they can have a balanced system with a line run forward and another run back, or using a commercial whip type antenna that is pre-tuned to specific bands.


Time of day is going to dictate which band to use and simply by listening to each band one can tell what is going on with propagation. One would be listening to hear call signs from the area you are wanting to contact. If you can hear them well, they will probably hear you... For shorter distance communication (a bit more than line of sight) one can usually use 40m during the day and 80m at night. Longer distance is usually on 20m but only at specific times of the day.

[ka4wja]

Westcliffe,

Cool story!

And yep, antennas and understanding radiowave propagation are very important in HF comms...and I buy a new ARRL Handbook and Antenna Book every 5 to 10 years (I joined the ARRL in spring of '74...and I think the earliest / oldest handbook I still have is 1964, or so...as I gave some of my older ones to my best friend, who's into restoring old radios)...

But...
[I don't want to drift this off on these tangents, but think a brief correction here would be good?]


But, the bottom-line is (and always has been), receive signal-to-noise ratio is the determiner of success in HF comms....and way back in the 80's there just weren't any consumer electronic devices polluting the airwaves with RFI, so it was all mostly about antennas and propagation...

{FYI, 1987 wasn't close to the peak of the solar cycle....the bottom of the previous cycle was in the autumn of 1986....things were improving a year later, and by fall of '87 the new cycle was up quite well....although the "peak" wasn't until Nov '89 and Aug '91...just to bring the point home about RFI (and antennas / understanding of propagation), being important...not the exact position / progression of the solar-cycle...}



Again, I don't want to drift this thread way off the topic of simple HF receiving (and the details of this is already here on Cruiser's Forum, in the stickies, etc...).....
So, while we are all entitled to our opinions, I'd like politely disagree with you, very strongly...but politely...

There hasn't been an issue matching an antenna to a transmitter on a sailboat in the almost 50 years I've been doing this (assisted in my first maritime HF-SSB install in 1973)....
Now back in the 70's and early 80's we used step-motor-driven, remote auto-tuners (couplers), then we got remote "auto-tuners"....and never had a problem!
{BTW, somewhere in a storage garage, I still have an old SGC "12-position" step-motor-driven, remote tuner from the mid-1970's....darn thing is 45 years old, and still works!}

I'm not sure who / where you were informed that a "remote controlled tuner in a marine environment...not such a simple matter"?
'Cuz in the last 45 - 50 years, that I've been doing this, it's actually quite easy and reliable!


Of course, as I mentioned above, this is rather moot discussion here, as a tuner of any kind (remote controlled, or not) is totally unnecessary for HF receiving....


(Now, even with a transmitter, if there was a problem with this, except for solid-state transmitter-power-fold-back, and common-mode transmit RFI, a mis-matched antenna isn't really an issue with short feedlines on HF freqs...)



Now, if we're are talking about HF receiving (which we are), there is no issue here at all....HF receive antennas do not need to be "impedance matched" to their receivers at all....and except in some extremely rare instances with out-of-band noise/interference, there is no positive effect at all for HF receiving...



Many have found excellent results across the entire HF spectrum using a random wire antenna....and those on-board boats have simply used their rig (stays, shrouds, mast, etc) as an easy-peasy HF receive antenna...

Again, this has all been discussed in some detail in the stickies above (and elsewhere), and since xslim was specifically inquiring about HF reception on-board, I think rambling on further here might just confuse the issue??


Perhaps a look at one of my more recent posts on this, in the stickies above would be good to look at?
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3164479



I'm hesitant to drift things even further....but, your point about "trawlers" is interesting....
Of course, for HF comms on the lower freq bands (2mhz thru 8mhz), trawlers generally have a distinct transmit disadvantage due to their shorter antennas (shorter than the typical sailboat's backstay antenna) being less efficient on the lower bands and also typically having their remote tuners (antenna feedpoint) significantly farther away from the sea water antenna ground, or whatever they may be using for an antenna ground (tankage, etc.)....
But as you mention they do have the ability to use a horizontal antenna, which at a height of ~ 1/4wave (1/8-wave to 1/4-wave) will give them a distinct advantage at "local"/"regional" comms of 100 to 400 miles!!
So, this is a good point to remember.


That's all for now...
Fair winds...


John

[Westcliffe01]

John, usually establishing communications from "cold" is the hard part, once one has determined a suitable band and time of day and have a regular schedule, then one is able to turn off any problematic appliances to get better radio silence. However one does it, HF communications is usually not just a case of "pick up the mike and speak" like it is with VHF. FM is less susceptible to static and other RFI and the squelch control can mute a lot of background noise...


Anyone experienced with working SSB knows this, but someone completely unfamiliar may have no idea.... I daresay that most people looking at the install of a SSB radio also may have no idea about the antenna tuner and coming up with a matched antenna is not a small feat.


Of course there are other details like whether you need to disconnect the VHF antenna before transmitting on HF, especially if you have 100W or more output, one can easily blow the front end of a different receiver that is on board.


I guess you are right, 87 was not at a peak, but certainly a lot higher in activity than where we find ourselves today.... I remember being in college in 88 and building GAsFet preamplifiers for 6m decommissioned military transceivers while looking for long distance 6m signals. To test if the systems were working we would tune to a quiet part of the band and then rotate the yagi antenna towards the sun and the background noise would pick up substantially....

[ka4wja]

Xslim,

Please forgive all this thread drift and unfortunate BS below...
I'm truly sorry...

'Cuz establishing HF comms, "cold" is 99% of what's done on the HF ham bands everyday....whether on-shore or at sea...
And, if you take a few minutes / an hour or so, to learn the basics....you'll have a lot of fun and success!

So, if you desire to learn more about these matters, the info is here for you...for free...
Nobody is trying to sell you anything, nor convince you of anything....just provide the facts and learned advice...

So, if you do desire some more info....have a look at the stickies and the videos...

Maritime HF Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


HF-DSC Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY


Icom M-802 Instruction Videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr


Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY


VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF



https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tc-133496.html


https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tc-198305.html



And, especially this posting here:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3164479


Remember, you don't need to know mush of this, in order to just use a receiver, but have a look at the videos and pages dealing with RFI, Noises, and HF-Receive Only / Portable SW receivers, etc...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


But, Westcliffe, aside from using sun noise to check pre-amp performance, and my system G/T (I did mine on 144mhz, not 6m...as that was what I was using for EME back in the 80's....although, as I've admitted over the years, I wish I'd have started at 432mhz...but hindsight is 202/20, isn't it? You can see some pics and brief description on my qrz page.)....


So, aside from your mention of using sun noise to check receive system, I'm really not sure what you're talking about here...


'Cuz, in my decades of HF operations, antenna system design and construction, teaching (and continuing education of my own), etc., I've not seen/heard of the issues you mention....
And, while my gut is telling me that you're just having a laugh here, posting this....I think maybe a clarification or two would help others here?



Who / where / how could anyone make any contacts on HF, if all they could do is arrange a predetermined sked? Seriously?
This is funny....seriously, it makes me smile...

Yeah, I know those new to HF comms can be a bit intimidated by it, and some even refuse to ever learn....but, come on....

I mean, even total non-tech laypersons can learn enough about HF Radiowave propagation (be taught in less than an hour or two), to understand how-to use their radio and make many random contacts, any day of the week....(that's kinda the point of all my free instructional videos)...

My experiences over the past 5 decades (including this past year, and other years, of solar minimums), is 100% contrary to what you write.....in that most HF comms actually IS "just turning on the radio, turning a dial, and speaking to someone"!!

And, while your mentioning of FM (and VHF) is a big red herring here, perhaps you're not clear on what noise you're actually squelching on a VHF-FM radio?
'Cuz, it's not atmospheric noise, nor usually RFI, but rather the radio's internal noise....
I mean, come on, anyone that wants to post about using sun noise to test/evaluate pre-amps, must know this? Yes?
So, why even mention this?
Again, I suspect, just to have a laugh?

And, who in their right mind would simply accept "turning off appliances" just to operate the radio?
{although, I recently had a gentleman tell me he'd never use his autopilot when using his HF radio....and I just let it slide, 'cuz I didn't want to over-whelm him.....but, if I had to hand steer in order to use the radio, I'd never talk to anyone when at sea... }



And, to be clear, unless your VHF whip antenna makes direct physical contact with your HF transmitting antenna (while you're transmitting), or vice-versa, there is no issue with having your HF system interfere with your VHF system (or vice-versa)....
{heck, I've transmitted with more than 1000 watts of transmit power, with other antennas just a couple feet away, no issues, many times using the other radios simultaneously....it's all about isolation and separation, both "physical" and frequency separation....and, of course we have our HF-DSC receive antennas (and/or HF-WeFax receive antennas) just a couple feet away from our HF transmit antennas on-board....}



And, where have you seen anyone considering a Maritime HF install (Maritime MF/HF-DSC-SSB radio system) without a remote tuner?
'Cuz in almost 50 years (actually before that....not since the 1960's use of vacuum-tube PA 2mhz marine AM radios, which had direct-coupled single-feed output, going directly to a whip / wire (we had one of those in the 60's...it was a Raytheon unit, and used a 12vdc driven "dyno-motor" high-voltage generator!)....not since then have I ever seen/heard anyone not include the antenna system design (remote tuner, etc.) into account when looking at a marine HF (transmit) system on-board....



I could go on and on....but, to be clear, I'm done here in this thread...
Xslim has the info he needed, and if he looks at the stickies and other threads, and follows the advice of those, he'll be fine...



Again, I'm assuming you're just having a laugh here, but Westcliffe please have some care for the layperson sailors here-about, who might actually think this is true / serious....

take care and fair winds.

John


P.S. In case you're not just pulling my leg here, I'm going to assume you didn't read the referenced post I mentioned earlier? Perhaps you should?

[Westcliffe01]

John, who made you God and appointed you king of radio related threads ? Just back off and let other people contribute....



My entire family have all had their amateur radio licenses back when we were in our late teens and early 20's. You are oversimplifying the subject. If HF operation was so easy, every boat in the world would have a fully operable HF radio setup but its clearly not the case. Obviously interference from digital devices and switching power supplies and inverters has become more of a problem than it used to be.



I wouldn't be the first person in the the world to blow some transistor finals because the antenna wasn't matched properly. And those aren't cheap nor can they be replaced at sea. So best know exactly how to tune up your antenna starting with lowest power and working your way up. Physical separation between transmitting antennas is another thing, there is a big difference between inches of separation and feet.


You, John may have forgotten most of this 50 years ago but someone new to the business is not going to be proficient after a couple of hours of watching youtube videos. Does the newbie know that if he hoists aloft a permanent long wire antenna, that in electrical storms it could be charged to several thousand volts resulting in a corona discharge at the antenna connection at the back of the radio ? Does he know how to plan for such circumstances ?


Come on, this is not about how to use the latest smart phone. There is a lot to learn on the science, the theory and the practical aspects of it.

[Westcliffe01]

James, consider this general coverage receiver for sale in the UK
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yaesu-FRG...oAAOSw6ZFfGEYJ

Originally Posted by james pask

Hi - Im new to SSB and curious to understand how they operate and if they are useful in Northern Europe , I'm based in Scotland with plans to head over to the Baltic and Europe - has anyone experience and views of the NASA TARGET HF3/W RECEIVER that they might share ?
Thanks in advance.
James

[slug]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

James,

Please save for money! Take atoll's advice...


I'm usually polite here-abouts, and rarely take a strident "know-it-all" approach, but here in this case of the Nasa Marine Target HF receiver I'm going to be blunt and direct...

1) It is a very poor receiver! I saw one (once), and believe me it's a pretty crappy receiver....you'd be much better off with a decent portable SW receiver w/SSB receive capability (as atoll mentioned).
Whether you choose a Tecsum, Katio, Sagean, or Sony.....you can find a nice portable HF ShortWave (SW) receiver that will work much better...



2) If you search and/or look at some links in the stickies above, you'll see some info on these....but also you'll see that successful HF receiving is all about received signal-to-noise ratio....and it's getting rid of all the "noise" that is radiated by so much of the consumer electronics we have in our lives today (including mobile phone chargers, solar charge controllers, etc., that you'd never think would cause issues), that is the trick in having easy-peasy HF radio communications, or even just listening to the SW radio!



3) Finally, depending on where you're planning on sailing, you might be better off with a dedicated NAVTEX receiver? Certainly in Europe, whether in the Med or N. Europe, NAVTEX coverage is good....
Although, I agree that having a weather chart in my hand (or on a screen) is much better than just reading a few lines of text....and, if you're venturing far offshore (> 200nm from land), and/or across oceans, then having HF WeFax reception is good...you need to decide what is best for you and your sailing/cruising...


Please take both of these last two points here (plethora of HF radio noise / RFI, and what weather info you need for your area), into consideration, before deciding on "how-to" get weather info/forecasts....

Whatever you decide, just don't buy a Nasa Marine Target HF receiver.


Fair winds.


John


P.S. You may wish to contact Dockhead here on Cruiser's Forum, as he sails your region....and he might have some up-to-date info on what weather services are best / easiest in that area....
Just be sure to tell him your budget, 'cuz it appears to me that you might be looking for an inexpensive solution....

{BTW, on a side note....years ago, we'd use the BBC shipping forecast on LW (190khz or 200khz?) all over the UK, Bay of Biscay, all the way to Gib...don't know if they're still on-the-air, but it was easy-peasy with a good SW receiver (a long time back, I added a VLF/LW converter to the first solid-state Yaesu SW receiver, the RFG-7, just for the BBC LW service, and it worked perfectly!!)}

As far as I know its still 198 kHz , shipping forecast

BBC 4

Typically up north you monitor stations Bracknell , Northwood , Offenbach , North German Radio

Best to check the Admiralty signal list , things change

Radio times is also useful

[Time2Go]

Awhile ago I asked for advice on a portable receiver
and after great feedback here purchased a Tecsun PL 880
which arrived yesterday.
Haven’t yet had a chance to play with it yet.
Can any of you good folks point me to a
list of cruiser nets, time and frequency so that I
could listen in on.
I am located in Boynton Beach Florida.
I’ll report back when I have fiddled about a bit.
Cheers
Neil

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Time2Go

Awhile ago I asked for advice on a portable receiver
and after great feedback here purchased a Tecsun PL 880
which arrived yesterday.
Haven’t yet had a chance to play with it yet.
Can any of you good folks point me to a
list of cruiser nets, time and frequency so that I
could listen in on.
I am located in Boynton Beach Florida.
I’ll report back when I have fiddled about a bit.
Cheers
Neil

check the communications on franks page

Frank Singleton's Weather and Sailing Pages - Franks-Weather - The Weather Window

[ka4wja]

1) My apologies to all here.
It seems my abrupt words (and poor attempt at humor) were taken as rude, condescending, and/or "absolute". And, I am sorry!

Of course, nobody appointed me anything, and certainly not the "God of HF comms"....and I apologize if this is how I came off.

Just an FYI....as evidenced by my addressing a comment to the wrong person (from another thread), it seems sleep-deprivation caught up with me here, big time.
Opps.


2) Oh well, as long as James got the answers he needed, that's the important thing!


3) And, cool to know BBC4 at 198khz, is still doing the shipping forecast...


4) Just please remember, getting rid of the RFI is going to be the single most significant part of your success in using an HF receiver on-board....
Please have a look at the stickies above for details.


Fair winds to all.

John

[barnakiel]

We have one, but we find it only marginally useful.


Ours finds use mostly offshore as a radiofax receiver (paired with a laptop). I like looking at wx fax on the way from Caribbean back to Europe.



Inshore, within Europe, I would not bother.



barnakiel