Internet at sea about to get a lot better

[Le Freak]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

I couldn't find a great spot for this sonim putting it here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/techn...es-into-orbit/

In the next 5 to 10 years the global sat internet coverage should get really good and far more reasonably priced than current offerings.

And last but not least, What's App and all sorts of goodies we already enjoy in today's streets
I could also depend on what is Elon going to charge x Mb use of the tool
It will rattle big business with Iridum (Big client's Space X)

[billdomb]

Originally Posted by Jon Hacking

Bill, pointing a dish generally means you're trying to talk to a geostationary satellite....
SpaceX is putting up a system similar to Iridium, where the birds are in a constellation of Low Earth Orbits (LEO) 200-800 miles high. The birds talk to each other via laser, to route your signal along the optimum path to its destination. SpaceX says they can beat the latency of even undersea cables, which is pretty amazing.

Iridium is waaaay slow as well as expensive.

Pointing at the SpaceX birds is going to be somewhat more challenging than the geostationaries.

Nonethelsss, people using satellite internet don't seem to be complaining that much.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by billdomb

Pointing at the SpaceX birds is going to be somewhat more challenging than the geostationaries.

This is true, but it’s not as challenging as most people imagine.

The SpaceX dish will use phase array, not gimbals to “point.” Moving parts would be bad at sea and there is too much motion for physical movement of a dish while underway. Imagine a pizza box shaped dish that uses electronic gyros and accelerometers to measure movement. Then, tiny antannae work in concert with different broadcast intensities to create an amplified wave in a particular direction just like multiple ripple sources in a still lake can generate amplified waves in a particular direction.

There are people who use the internet to distract themselves from the physical world and there are people who use information from the internet to minimize busywork to maximize their engagement with the world. Only you know who you are, but this will be a game changer for those of us who embrace technology to allow safer, more efficient, more knowledgeable travel as we explore this world and its cultures.

[Cpt Pat]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Thanks - that's gonna be my response for folks pining for the "good 'ol days" - We are just evolving in a new direction.

Ah yes, the "good 'ol days." I'm not sure which I miss most: smallpox or polio. ;-)


Since I'm turning 65, I suppose I'm now entitled to the Grumpy Old Man act; but instead, I think things have definitely gotten better.


Sat service today stinks. Iridium's 2400 baud on a good day for a few minutes without a drop is not something I consider to be useable. I threw out my Hayes modem and don't wanna go back. Globalstar's 9600 baud over a limited area isn't much better. I hope we get a better service while I'm still kicking. I'd love to get real weather charts.

[DeValency]

wish your town(s) best of luck with that.
Boston also protected Comcast only for years and did not let Verizon fiberoptics to set an infrastructure. - I guess they didn't want to pay the mafia...
But these days are over, few startup companies got in and are beaming the signal (microwave) to tiny antennas installed on high rises. They provide a full duplex 360/360 mbps of internet at zero interruptions for $50-60 month, no modem, no contract and are fantastic in service. The one I use for few years already is NetBlazr. Now, this can't be installed on the mast... as the antenna should be 100% stable and directed to the next one, but the marina/town can install it anywhere and screw the cable companies forever. While I don't care about TV that much I got a streaming TV through AT&T-DirectTV Now for $10/month over my mobile cell plan... (personally I wouldn't pay more than $20 for any number of TV channels).

all this is great for a town level. G5 will extend the cellular bandwidth and range for coastal sailing but we need a good satellite service, for those of us cruising away sometimes.... I'm following up with all the services, but so far what's available is extremely slow (less than a dialup in the early 90's) and pricey... One of the reasons I can't, yet, cut (literally) the cord...

Originally Posted by CaptTom

Yeah, I'm also rooting for 5G to replace cable. I'm not betting much on it at this point though.

Around here, reliable high-speed internet means dealing with one, and only one, cable company.

Five towns in our area banded together to gain what they thought would be more bargaining power with the cable companies.

Instead all it means is the cable company only has to fly their team of lawyers to one location, instead of five, when it comes time to screw us renew the contract again. The towns don't really get much say in what the terms will be.

Any serious competition would be welcome!

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Thalas

Moving parts would be bad at sea and there is too much motion for physical movement of a dish while underway.

Actually ...

Check out VSAT. Those really enormous domes on yachts and ships are commonly VSAT antenna equipment. It's on a fancy gimbal controlled by tracking hardware/software to keep the antenna pointed at the satellite at all times. It's not cheap and it needs regular maintenance, but it does work quite well.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by DeValency

But these days are over, few startup companies got in and are beaming the signal (microwave) to tiny antennas installed on high rises.

We don't have high-rise buildings. I don't see line-of-sight solutions like microwave working well here. I don't see cable to each house being a long-term solution, either. It already costs too much, even if they bundle cable TV, internet and land-line phone service. Especially since on-demand streaming is replacing scheduled TV programming, and land lines are already a thing of the past.

For us, something like 5G will probably be our best option going forward.

[Thalas]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

Actually ...

Check out VSAT. Those really enormous domes on yachts and ships are commonly VSAT antenna equipment. It's on a fancy gimbal controlled by tracking hardware/software to keep the antenna pointed at the satellite at all times. It's not cheap and it needs regular maintenance, but it does work quite well.

ACTUALLY... (haha just teasing) VSAT is connecting with geostationary satellites. This is significantly easier and with reduced motion for two reasons: 1) It is a one way connection and thus the broadcast can be transmitted in a cone and the receiver has some leeway to still receive signal within that cone and 2) geostationary satellites are NOT moving longitudinally and thus it is much easier for the gimbal motors to track them.

This would be difficult to do with this system as the satellites are moving much faster, are also moving longitudinally, and require precise target lock to facilitate two way communication. Add a boat in motion on all three axis and it's near impossible). That's why phase array is such a necessary solution.

[anacapaisland42]

OMG...my first long real ocean coastal cruise was following the depth sounder to keep off-shore !
Bill

[Kit_L]

Yesterday, I bought a Garmin inReach mini, so my brother can do the weather forecasting for our trip from Queensland home to Greenwell Point.

I hope Elon Musk's system will out-do and out-perform the Iridium system, but for now I am delighted that I can get four-hour updates while we are 15+nm offshore, to catch that East Australia current!

[DeValency]

Jon, great review of the state of the art on this important topic. Reading some of the posts earlier, make me think that some people here didn’t really bothered to refer to the subject and just complain on how younger (than 70...) kids are attached to their smartphones - that’s the reality, mine too and if we want to maintain our connection to family, friends and civilization and cruise safely in the best possible conditions, we need a reasonable internet connection at sea.

It should be our mission, not only for extending our cruising years and range but also in order to pull younger generations into water sailing">blue water sailing and longer range cruising.

So, also as an electrical engineer, fully connected 24/7/365 and a sailor/racer for my entire life I’m following closely after SpaceX initiatives on satellite communication with high hopes it will work great for the entire world, not only for the very few real cruisers around the world - as if it will only be our problem, nothing will be developed. The sad reality is that many millions of people in the world can’t get an internet connection, that’s including the US...

Fingers crossed!
Nitzan


QUOTE=Jon Hacking;2767344]Bill, pointing a dish generally means you're trying to talk to a geostationary satellite. That is, one that orbits the earth in exactly 1 day, so it appears to sit still in our sky, over the equator. The height for such an orbit is over 22,000 miles, so sending a signal to that satellite, it sending it back to (somewhere else on) earth, & then to get a reply, means that signal has had to travel over 90,000 miles. Since light (or radio waves) only travel 186,000 miles/second, you have to wait half a second to get a response to anything you send. In networking terms, this is called Latency, which internet (& phone conversations) hate. There are a few companies offering bidirectional internet this way, typically to very remote (fixed) locations that have no other options, but the service is very poor because of excessive latency.

SpaceX is putting up a system similar to Iridium, where the birds are in a constellation of Low Earth Orbits (LEO) 200-800 miles high. The birds talk to each other via laser, to route your signal along the optimum path to its destination. SpaceX says they can beat the latency of even undersea cables, which is pretty amazing. Since the birds are in LEO, it doesn't take much power to get to them, & a cheap omni-directional antenna is fine.

You may think that Iridium Go! service, at $1,500/year, is "pretty cheap" but it's too much for us. We have an Iridium sat-phone, but we've dropped the service because it was too expensive ($800/yr minimum). SpaceX says their service will be competitive with terrestrial cellular, which will be a HUGE boon to those of us out in the boonies of (for instance) SE Asia.[/QUOTE]

[Taipe]

The internet, indeed, has become a run-away train. Once upon a time, I just hoped we could all pick the good fruit and leave the rest on the tree. Why did that have to be so difficult?

[DeValency]

Maybe a run away in your views. Maybe a better way to communicate, educate and know things around and far away for many others...

Some 5700 years ago (by the Bible... ) Eve tried to pick the good fruit and then the family of man in a fast-forward, reached enough wisdom to invent the internet!

You can run away with apples (that old couple had to do it) or stay connected, informed and so much more with the new technologies. It is totally up to each one of us to decide and achieve - it is a free world (well, almost...).

As for me, my sailing and cruising safety and experience and FREEDOM! are way better achieved with a global internet communication. That’s also what my 91 years old amazing mom is telling me! - but from reading some of the posts here, maybe my mom is too young for this forum


QUOTE=Taipe;2768583]The internet, indeed, has become a run-away train. Once upon a time, I just hoped we could all pick the good fruit and leave the rest on the tree. Why did that have to be so difficult?[/QUOTE]

[danielamartindm]

All I can say is "Count me in!" Reliable internet at sea could only enhance safety and communications, to land and to each other. It would also provide the hearing impaired with more options, offer new weather report modalities, deliver news and entertainment, and perhaps save us money by lowering the cost of services we already use. I feel lucky to live in these times, with such amazing technology at our fingertips.

[svmobert]

The SpaceX technology is largely the same as Iridium... both use LEO satellites with cross-satellite links and Phase-array antennas.

Sure SpaceX will have more, smaller, satellites and higher frequency bands so they will achieve higher bandwidth, but Iridium exists today, has fast enough data for most anyone (132kbps today, 1.5mbps in a month or so.) and already services the maritime market, operates globally, etc.

Yes, it is expensive to use, and I suspect SpaceX/Starlink will also be expensive for edge cases like sailing vessels, etc.

That said you can achieve a whole lot with an Iridium Pilot (and more with upcoming Certus) with very little monthly cost if you use the right software and services with it. For example, I have a Pilot, and pay LESS than the Iridium Go! unlimited service and do email, weather, etc, and I can even get to my warehouse logistics, online bookkeeping software, and other websites when I need to, something I can't do with an Iridium Go!.

Just my opinion. A lot of people are hoping SpaceX makes it super cheap, but I just don't see that happening, at least for a long time. There is no way that it replaces Cell Phones, and as long as you can't get rid of cellular, it competes for the market, remains somewhat niche, and keeps costs up. I'd love to be proven wrong 6 years from now or so though.

In the meantime, you can already access the Internet via a low-earth-orbit, 100% global satellite constellation that has been operating for decades and just upgraded for more reliability and higher speeds. If you need it, it's there.

Originally Posted by billdomb

Iridium is waaaay slow as well as expensive.

Pointing at the SpaceX birds is going to be somewhat more challenging than the geostationaries.

Nonethelsss, people using satellite internet don't seem to be complaining that much.