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Old 28-02-2018, 05:40   #16
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Re: Icom M802 & AT-140 Grounding???

Is this a infomercial post?

What "S-units" did you use to make your anecdotal observations? Is your meter calibrated or are just reporting LCD bars or needle wiggles as gain?

Maybe you can explain how a KISS hose pipe with wires created 1 to 3 S-units of gain? Where did this gain magically come from. Any Ideas?

What is so good about the KISS that makes bunch of wires stuck in a hose pipe magical give you such a tremendous signal gain? Incredible performance, I will tell some ham friends that they need to sell their 1500 watt amplifiers and buy a KISS ground and attach it to their radios. They also might get 6 to 18 db of gain without the need for a big antenna and amplifiers. This hose pipe with wires in it has miraculous powers I must say.

Assuming a 50 ohm source impedance and 6db per S-unit, you really think that you can gain 6 to 18db of gain by adding a hose pipe full of wires to the ground terminal of a tuner? Maybe you can explain how this works. I am very curious to learn.

What makes all these other ground or counterpoise types such lossy devices over seawater when compared to this miracle ground system call the KISS? The results you report are very impressive I am sure many sailors would like to learn about this miraculous ground system.




Quote:
Originally Posted by hamradiosailor View Post
I have heard this argument about getting a bunch of wire and making a KISS counterpoise many times. It would be interesting to have A/B comparison with a KISS system. Has anyone done this?

As most on this forum know, reliable HF communications, particularly for offshore boaters, is not a matter of a hobby, or of convenience, it is something that must work well and reliably in the worst of conditions. I used multiple lengths of 3" copper ribbons in the bilge for an RF ground on our last boat, an O'Day 35. it never worked very well and eventually corroded badly with the salt water. Yes epoxy paint would help to mitigate corrosion but I would not trust it over the long term and it is a lot of painting and routing of copper yet again. I had read that marine growth was a continual problem with sintered grounding plates which require through-hull mounting. So with our new boat, a Beneteau 46, i decided to try the KISS counterpoise given the feedback from many of boaters who have tried it (boaters both with and without a strong HF radio experience). I personally use 20 and 40 meters 95 % of the time. The KISS system works so much better than my last setup. Ham friends who I have kept in touch with on regular schedules over the years say consistently that I now have a "booming" signal. One of these friends on land got curious and decided to test the KISS system himself. His results using autotune on his transceiver for all tests were informative. He demonstrated that for his antenna the KISS system performance was equal to his existing 500' of copper ground radials on 20 and 40 meters. That is perhaps hard for many to explain, but it is consistent with what other boaters have reported, i.e. excellent results with the KISS system especially in the mid HF range.

Freq (kHz) A/B signal report comparison
1900 A > B by three S-units
3970 A > B by two 2 S-units
7100 A = B, no difference observed
14020 A = B, no difference observed
21020 A > B by one S-unit
Notes: A = with 500' of ground radials;
B = with KISS-SSB counterpoise.

Now in addition to the cheap bundle of wires argument, there are also arguments based on radio theory, ground current measurements, spectrum analyzer results, etc. This all misses the point for most boaters. To them, the cost of KISS, about $150, is not at all an issue, especially compared to the routine costs of boat ownership. A high performing, clean, compact, reliable, corrosion-free, and marine growth-free solution to the "grounding" problem is what many boaters are after. This is what the KISS system provides, in my opinion. And to have a counterpoise on board that appears to work as well as 500 feet or radials on land, sounds good enough for me. Anyway, I feel that there is more analysis that can and should be done, but for now the KISS onboard simply works, and it works more reliably partly because it is...well...simple.
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Old 28-02-2018, 06:35   #17
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Re: Icom M802 & AT-140 Grounding???

Great references for us newbyís, thank you.
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Old 28-02-2018, 13:05   #18
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Re: Icom M802 & AT-140 Grounding???

The Internet is full of ďanecdotal scienceĒ, confirmation bias, and those that are convinced by it. It will always be so. I donít doubt that the KISS provides a useable counterpoise in a boat sitting in sea water. And if someone wants to spend $150 on it instead of $10 and a little bit of time, thatís fine. We all make time vs money decisions. What is disingenuous is that it is marketed as some kind of precisely tuned and calibrated ground system, which it absolutely isnít. And if it were designed and built as a tuned counterpoise, putting in a bilge, whether stretched out or thrown in any which way ( which the marketer says is fine) would completely de-tune it. Better than other counterpoise systems? No, Iíve purchased one and found it wasnít in my use. Easiest to install and useable? Sure. Just know what you are really buying.
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Old 04-03-2018, 22:00   #19
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Re: Icom M802 & AT-140 Grounding???

Irunbird, et al,

You all may wish to read the addendum to my sticky above...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2590481

And/or the new thread about Proper HF-SSB Installation Tips/Techniques...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tc-198305.html

Fair winds..

John
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Old 05-03-2018, 03:24   #20
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Re: Icom M802 & AT-140 Grounding???

Thank you again for the links and information, John- I've read them. I was able to install the radio this weekend and got it all sort of working.. I still have some minor issues to deal with (one is the RF ground- it's attached to the pre-existing copper foil running throughout the boat and attached to at least 2 seacocks, but so corroded it may be ineffective). I wasn't on the boat yesterday at the right time to tune into a broadcast to hear anything (other than some squeaks and garbled speech), but there is at least something coming through. I'll be testing again this coming weekend.

One question, though-- in earlier posts, the technique of grabbing a bunch of old wire (2-3 strands).. I happen to have a lot of household wire from old kitchen remodels. None of it's tinned, of course, and it's typical home depot wire-- mostly 12-14 gauge and non-stranded insulated copper in a 3:1 cable. Would that be suitable and would it need to be connected to a seacock at the end? It didn't seem like it mattered from earlier posts. I'm planning to experiment with both the copper foil it's currently connected to and with this home-made setup this coming weekend.

Ray
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:19   #21
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Re: Icom M802 & AT-140 Grounding???

Ray,
As I wrote earlier, you should read the addendum to my sticky above...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/marine-ssb-stuff-how-to-better-use-proeprly-install-ssb-and-troubleshoot-rfi-etc-133496-5.html#post2590481
(section "h" deals with grounds)

And/or the new thread about Proper HF-SSB Installation Tips/Techniques...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/hf-ssb-radio-proper-installation-tips-techniques-etc-198305.html

All your questions are answered there, in detail.


In brief, a direct sea water connection is preferred....but do not use "foil", use strap! (see ALL the info in the links above)

And, yes...any copper wire, of any sort, will work as a counterpoise of some sort....again, read ALL the details in the links above....it all a matter of degree...
But, to be honest, I'd use some insulated stranded wire, not solid wire (like normal house wiring) 'cuz the solid wire is just too much of a pain to work with...

And, to give you the "whole" answer: read the details in the links....it's all there for you.


Fair winds..

John
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