I’m anti AIS. BUT......

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

All of them. Some you have to walk around to "clear the arcs" and frequently have to go out to the wings to see dead astern. A proper watch is an active affair.

I did look at a couple of you tube bridge tours. None of them had 360 degrees, even if you went out on the wings. The cruise ship did have TV cameras.

In your vast experience, what percentage of the time does a ship crew hold a proper watch? How often does the average bridge officer go out on the wings in the rain and cold"

Do you think the watch on the Tropic Breeze with a broken AIS cleared the arcs every 15 minutes looking for Megayachts?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I did look at a couple of you tube bridge tours. None of them had 360 degrees, even if you went out on the wings. The cruise ship did have TV cameras.

In your vast experience, what percentage of the time does a ship crew hold a proper watch? How often does the average bridge officer go out on the wings in the rain and cold"

Do you think the watch on the Tropic Breeze with a broken AIS cleared the arcs every 15 minutes looking for Megayachts?

Care to post links to these tours? I don't imagine any bridge allows a person to stand in a single spot that enables a full 360º unimpeded view. But I've never seen one where you couldn't get a full 180º+ from the wing.

I suppose it much depends on the type of vessel. Most tankers and freighters have the bridge aft, so views aft usually quite good. The blind zone ahead can be huge, but beyond that is generally clear. Ferries, ro-ros and cruise ships generally put the bridge up front, and because of the large slab sides, can have the view aft limited, but again from the wings you see aft, but perhaps without any overlap. It would be a remarkable achievement if something could hide in the wake, and helmsperson or autohelm maintained an absolutely perfect steady course, thus keeping it out of sight.

Different ships in different situations will have varying degrees of watch maintained. Most don't need to leave the comfort of the bridge proper - there are usually aft-facing windows at the wings. That said a commercial vessel in open ocean with one or two on the bridge, it will be a rare watchkeeper that traipses 100 feet across the bridge from wing to wing every few minutes. In coastal waters, it's more likely for them to have added lookouts. In my navy days, we'd have 3 lookouts; one on each wing (inside if required) and one at the stern, plus two OOWs, one of whom would be maintaining a visual watch.

I can't say what sort of watch Tropic Breeze maintained, other than to say overall lookout must have been lacking on the night in question. Probably one watchkeeper and a helmsperson on the bridge. From the pictures, it appears that they'd need to go to the wings to see astern, but it would only be a 20' walk between them. Assuming the autopilot would be driving, the helmer could be put as lookout at the nearest side to the helm station, and the watchkeeper could focus their watch on the other side. So it could have been done easily enough. It probably wasn't, and as result they sank.

[donradcliffe]

The Tropic Breeze had a total crew of 7. According to its owner "The 160-foot tanker was traveling on its proper watch en route to Great Stirrup Cay when it was rear-ended by the 207-foot super yacht". Not sure whether there would be more than one person on the bridge at 10 pm.

[donradcliffe]

Bridge tour of box ship

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iNThvr8nvM

The bridge might have small windows facing aft on each side, but there is probably blind spots. The most comforting part of the tour was the alarm box that goes off if the watch doesn't press a button periodically. The AIS box was front and center, and I assume that AIS targets would be shown on the chart plotter and radar screens.

I can't find the exact cruise ship bridge tour I looked at out of the many available. The bridge was forward, with enclosed wings that only extended a few feet beyond the side of the ship. In the last minute or two of the tour, the officer shows CCTV monitors for the blind spots.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by smj

So you consider letting a 15-20 story ship lit up like a city to get to within 3 minutes of running you down as being good seamanship? Is that what you would have done Jim? And if not, what actions would you have taken?

I have already described what I would have done: call the skipper earlier so he could decide the proper response to the situation in a more timely fashion. It is always a tricky decision when a stand on vessel should invoke rule 17 and deviate from maintaining course and speed. And I would have had the AIS alarm set to help me (or him) make t hat decision.

But you have not answered my question: other than calling the skipper sooner, what should the watchkeeper have done differently whilst following COLREGS that would remove the "pathetic seamanship" sobriquet that you keep applying?

Jim

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I have already described what I would have done: call the skipper earlier so he could decide the proper response to the situation in a more timely fashion. It is always a tricky decision when a stand on vessel should invoke rule 17 and deviate from maintaining course and speed. And I would have had the AIS alarm set to help me (or him) make t hat decision.



But you have not answered my question: other than calling the skipper sooner, what should the watchkeeper have done differently whilst following COLREGS that would remove the "pathetic seamanship" sobriquet that you keep applying?



Jim

If No AIS and no radar then take a hand bearing on the ship, which was first seen 2 hours before the near collision? If the bearing doesn’t change then take evasive action with time to spare? As others have said, a call on the VHF or shining a light on the sails may have helped but to remain on course thinking you have right of way is a sure way to get run over. First rule of seamanship, never think they have seen you always react as if they haven’t.
Either way I think donradcliffe has explained what happened and why.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The Tropic Breeze had a total crew of 7. According to its owner "The 160-foot tanker was traveling on its proper watch en route to Great Stirrup Cay when it was rear-ended by the 207-foot super yacht". Not sure whether there would be more than one person on the bridge at 10 pm.

I have no expertise with coastal tankers, and can't really speak to the crew composition - I can only assume the flag state authority or classification society has deemed what constitutes required crew. If I was to guess, 1 captain, 2 mates, 2 engineers, 2 seamen. With a crew that small, probably 1 in 2 watches, and some sort of rotation for off-watch to make coffee & meals and do clean up; and all hands on deck for berthing/lightering/etc.

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Bridge tour of box ship

The bridge might have small windows facing aft on each side, but there is probably blind spots...

You're probably seeing what you want to see. There are windows for looking aft:





I can practically guarantee that the only thing astern of that will be the stack and behind that a vertical-drop lifeboat, and neither of those is wide enough to obscure the view behind to about 185-190º relative. It is somewhat disturbing that on this ship they've chosen to pile a bunch of crap in front of the side and rear windows (flag locker and couch port/snack bar stbd), thus reducing their usefulness. Clearly an indication of a lax ship, with little consideration to looking abaft the beam. You can see that from the wing itself, you can practically look down at the side of the ship; the view aft will be similarly unobscured:



I had such high hopes that 3rd-world watchkeepers would be much improved from the days of yore. That said, this kid doesn't seem to have spent more than a dog watch at sea, so don't want to condemn the lot. Still it was odd that the azimuth ring was left resting on the sill, rather than being kept on the gyro pelorus - more concerning was the mate didn't think to mention its use in taking bearings of other ships, for y'know collision avoidance. Of course, it also appears that during his watch his main concern is making youtube videos. I assume the helmsman/lookout is the cameraman

I'm not sure if it was an editing thing, but it seemed weird to me that the radars showed a southwesterly heading, but when he got to the helm, the repeater was showing the heading as 050ish.

[s/v Jedi]

When the crew who is on watch is radar certified, they may use radar for the scan all around. Many will use radar plus eyeball for the fwd sector.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by wingssail

If you call, "Ship off my starboard bow"... which way should that watch stander look to see you?

If you call, "ship at lat long" how do you know that the coordinates he sees on his GPS agrees with the coordinates you just described?

When they get a call like that they just think you're stupid (true). No wonder they often fail to answer.

You have to think like they do. I do it like this, in an clear, unrushed voice, using a slight Chuck Yeager accent that, for better or for worse, I picked up when working on my IFR ticket years ago:


"Downbound barge at river mile 777, good morning, this is sailing vessel Exuberance Exuberance Exuberance. We're on your 2 o'clock at about 2 miles with blue trim on the sails. Just wanted to let you know that we're keeping an eye on you and are going to tack before we cross your bow."



[downbound barges with a following current are stand-on in the western rivers]


-or-


"Upbound tug at river mile 771, good afternoon, this is sailing vessel Exuberance Exuberance Exuberance. We're on your 10 o'clock at about 3 miles with blue trim on the sails and sail number H-2-6. Looks like we'll be crossing behind your stern and just wanted to be sure you see us in case you're thinking of starting your turn to port a little early."


Key points are that you want to describe your position relative to what they see. You want to describe their position in the terms they use which is usually not coordinates. The tug captains here all use an aviation-style "clock" relative bearing rather than "starboard bow, starboard beam, starboard quarter" etc. so I speak their chosen language. You also IMO want to make it clear what you've decided to do rather than ask for their intentions except when the COLREGs give them the obligation to choose which side to pass on.