High Seas cellphone internet (Elon Musk)

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I guess all the kids now growing up on cruising yachts, will be immersed in social media instead of enjoying a beautiful sunset at Sea!
....Sigh!

Oh they'll still be enjoying a beautiful sunset at sea, they'll just be instagramming them.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

This is pretty neat if they actually get it up and running. The only possible issue is latency. It will work great for sending and receiving documents, e-mails etc. and for downloading things such as video. Real time video and streaming may be an issue however. There has been a lot of work done trying to fix this but to the best of my knowledge, the jury is still out on the success.

LEO latency is a lot less than the roughly 600ms latency typically experienced with geostationary satellites. It should be the same as the current O3B at around 125ms. That sort of latency is better than I typically get now.

[ka4wja]

A few things come to mind here:

1) On first blush, this looks like a bigger version of Teledesic (major investors Microsoft and McCaw Cellular) and/or OneWeb (major investor, Google), which were supposed to have 840 satellites and 650 satellites, respectively...

While I love SpaceX and Elon, and wouldn't count him out....I wouldn't hold my breath for this to happen anytime soon!!
(and, FYI, even if this plan comes together, development continues on pace, etc., it will not be cheap....end-user systems in developing world will of course be subsidized...but those on yachts will be paying big bucks for this...equipment costs might be cheap, but data / airtime will be PRICEY!)

FYI, the 2 test sats that SpaceX launched, were additional payloads on an existing paying-customer launch....so they can certainly fit dozens of these small sats in one Falcon 9!! (maybe even close to 100???)



2) Why in the world does anyone need even email when at sea / on ocean passages, let alone internet access....this is beyond my comprehension.
And, in addition to being an offshore/ocean sailor since I was a kid in the 60's, I've made my living in the communications and sat comm industry...so, I'm not anti-tech, nor anti-sat comm, and I'm far from being an arm-chair sailor, but unless you're running a business, why do so many desire this level of connectivity when at sea??? (I mean, there is plenty of weather info/forecasts available for free, with no sat comm, no modem, no e-mail, no internet, etc.....and on passage, I cannot imagine having the time to surf-the-web, let alone have the inclination to do so..



3) The Thuraya Sleeve doesn't give you broadband web-surfing speed....it's about like "dial-up"...faster than IridiumGO, but isn't what most would consider modern internet...

The Sky / Space Global is an interesting concept for low-speed / narrow-band data (like IridiumGO) in equatorial region (from 15* N to 15*S, I think).....but here again, time-will-tell, and Iridium has a strong foot-hold!



4) if you want to see the actual improvements of mobile sat comm and near-future of LEO sat comm, have a look at Iridium Next...they (and Thuraya) actually launched and have active satellites, while the others are in "development"....
"Next" small mobile terminals have download speeds of 128kb (what the Iridium Pilot has now) and the Iridium Pilot has 1.5Mb download speeds thru the "Next" satellites...
https://www.iridium.com/network/iridium-next/




Bottom line:
--- Iridium or INMARSAT for world-wide sat comm data / voice service (Thuraya is good in their coverage regions)....and/or expensive VSAT terminals....
(and I think Globalstar still has some low-speed users??? but not a real option for most)
Or...
--- Or, use HF radio...
Or...
--- Or, just disconnect from the internet / e-mail for the few days/weeks you're at sea...





Fair winds.

John

[Pelagic]

Great post John[emoji106]

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

2) Why in the world does anyone need even email when at sea / on ocean passages, let alone internet access....this is beyond my comprehension.
And, in addition to being an offshore/ocean sailor since I was a kid in the 60's, I've made my living in the communications and sat comm industry...so, I'm not anti-tech, nor anti-sat comm, and I'm far from being an arm-chair sailor, but unless you're running a business, why do so many desire this level of connectivity when at sea??? (I mean, there is plenty of weather info/forecasts available for free, with no sat comm, no modem, no e-mail, no internet, etc.....and on passage, I cannot imagine having the time to surf-the-web, let alone have the inclination to do so..

.....Bottom line:
--- Iridium or INMARSAT for world-wide sat comm data / voice service (Thuraya is good in their coverage regions)
....and/or expensive VSAT terminals....
(and I think Globalstar still has some low-speed users??? but not a real option for most)
Or...
--- Or, use HF radio...
Or...
--- Or, just disconnect from the internet / e-mail for the few days/weeks you're at sea...

Fair winds.
John

Lots to digest in your post John, but here are my thoughts.

1....I only use texts when meeting up with friends/ family.... I hate them for any commercial or formal purpose.

2.....I like plain text emails because my Outlook manager organises the conversations into specific files and I can block large emails when I have limited connectivity

3....A normal cruiser mostly coasts in and out of good cell reception areas with just ocassional offshore passages, so the Sat link is really......

....For medical emergencies. (To email a Fleet Surgeon) or confirm changes in arrivals with port authorities, order critical parts, or book a flight with agent....update family..etc

I like emails, because it's nice to get all your communications synced on both Smart Phone and Laptop for backup and mobility.

My cruising grounds are around 15N to 15S
(Philippines to PNG)

So who do you see as the best bet in this communication game for my needs?

[RaymondR]

Good post John but from a different viewpoint.

Some of us live out there all the time and any improvement in comms is welcome.

More players usually results in more competition and lower costs.

Worked on the oceans and seas of the world implementing heavy industrial, engineering and science based activities when we only had HF comms. Even getting faxes over HF was an amazing improvement then came Inmarsat which, whilst very expensive (around $80,000 in 1970s dollars equipment cost) was an improvement. Reliable comms with computers and email is just fantastic. Bring it on babe, the more the merrier.

LEO with residual atmospheric drag and orbit degradation leading to eventual de-orbit and burn-up is probably preferable to further crowding of the geosynchronous orbits as well as improving the latency.

[RaymondR]

You have to love Elon's work, sending his auto on a round trip to Mars has introduced a little playful fun into space activities.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by StuM

LEO latency is a lot less than the roughly 600ms latency typically experienced with geostationary satellites. It should be the same as the current O3B at around 125ms. That sort of latency is better than I typically get now.

That is a lot better indeed! It's still higher than something like FiOS but it's still better than the other satellite options currently available. I figured it would be a little better but I am pleasantly surprised by that much of an improvement.

[Symphony]

Thanks for your post, ka4wja! always good info from you.
PS I sure appreciate your youTubes on Icom HF operations.

having email at sea discussion: I am still quite busy with several professional ventures and positions. yes, I could go a few days or 2 weeks without it, but having the option (via my InReach) means the level of preparation for my colleagues and staff before the voyage need only approach 95% instead of trying to achieve 99% preparation for me to be away from it all.

During a week at sea I may get one Emergency email, and even that rarely is anything that could not have waited a week. But having the high seas email means I can go on more trips with less work.

my InReach is good enough, real 3G or 4G data would be better so I could have attachments too.

[hellosailor]

Elon Musk and a project requiring nearly 4500 satellites.

He's never been able to mass-produce anything besides press releases on time.

File under "nice if it happens" but don't hold your breath. Or, ask how 4500 satellites are going to zip around without daily collisions.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

2) Why in the world does anyone need even email when at sea / on ocean passages, let alone internet access....this is beyond my comprehension.

Of course no one needs it. Think about gps, or chart plotters. What about radio, or electric lights?

I personally do not want to see this, or anything else elon musk is known for, but it is inevitable.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

File under "nice if it happens" but don't hold your breath. Or, ask how 4500 satellites are going to zip around without daily collisions.

Two reason why it's not a great concern.

They will all be in orbits between 160 and 2000 Km above the surface. All of them at the same height will be in moving at the same speed and direction and thus maintain horizontal spacing. Those at different heights will maintain their heights and thus their vertical spacing from those in different orbits.

FWIW, the volume of space between 160 and 2000 Km above the earth is 1.15*10^12 cubic kilometers. So that works out at over 250,000,000 cubic kilometers of space per satellite

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by LoudMusic

From my experience with VSAT on yachts where the latency is >650ms communicating with satellites that are >12,000 miles above Earth, the latency is a PAIN, but functional. Telephone calls have obvious latency but it's completely usable. Streaming isn't a problem - you just need a 10 second buffer. Video conferencing is the same as a telephone call with more bandwidth.

You just have to adjust expectations in order to handle the latency. It's like using terrestrial comms to the other side of the world. We've been doing that for over 100 years.

And that's all with VSAT. These Starlink satellites are supposed to be a fraction of the altitude, which will bring the latency way down. I'm really excited about it for all the many uses it has. Not the least of which is kicking cable and DSL internet providers square in their monopolistic nuts.

I believe Stu M pointed out that the LEO satellites are now around 125ms latency, which is pretty good. I wasn't aware that there was that much difference. It will certainly help a lot of people. I am sure it will also hurt a lot of people too! I can just hear it now: What, I missed the green flash? I was checking my facebook and missed it!!

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by StuM

FWIW, the volume of space between 160 and 2000 Km above the earth is 1.15*10^12 cubic kilometers. So that works out at over 250,000,000 cubic kilometers of space per satellite

Stu, thanks for pointing that out. I was going to do the math but you beat me to it.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

2) Why in the world does anyone need even email when at sea / on ocean passages, let alone internet access....this is beyond my comprehension.

Mobile internet allows me to work from anywhere. Currently this for example means that I can live in a mountain hut with a view worth millions, all while still making a living. Or go visit some place without needing to take a holiday.
With mobile internet at sea it becomes feasible to do this while cruising.
So I wouldn't have to wait till I retire to enjoy this lifestyle...