HF Radio -- Third Party Traffic

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by dlj

.. Is there any other sevice besides Winlink that can be used for email in a similar fashion?

SailMail.


It's costly, has a one year minimum subscription, and you're limited to 180 minutes of connection per week.


Your money however supports SailDocs, so it might be a public duty to sign up, if you use SailDocs (as I do). But I haven't.


I'm not sure whether the stations are more available or work better than Winlink. There is pretty good coverage for Winlink in Europe. In the Baltic last summer I must have connected to at least a dozen different stations.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Brian.D

I sent two emails on Winlink Express tonight. One to a friend in Davis, Ca. and one to a friend in England. Neither were Gmail accounts. We will see what happens tomorrow.

This is from my home QTH, not the boat.

Neither of these will be blocked, one is US -US the other is where a third party agreement exists.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Brian.D

I sent two emails on Winlink Express tonight. One to a friend in Davis, Ca. and one to a friend in England. Neither were Gmail accounts. We will see what happens tomorrow.

This is from my home QTH, not the boat.

If you used a telnet link it will go through. The restriction only applies to over the air comms.


Other points:

If you are in Europe and link to a UK RMS than the message should go through. It does not matter where you are if the country of the RMS station you connect to has a third party agreement with the US.

This whole issue got raised because certain US amateurs resented sharing their band segments with Winlink and other digital services. They have done everything they can to get rid of digital communications. They constantly complain to the FCC and search for ways to restrict traffic.

Also, I used Winlink from 2003 until 2010 outside the US and did carry the CEPT notice with me. No one ever checked my license or that I had the CEPT notice aboard. Back then the CEPT applied to General class licensed opreators. CEPT got more stringent when the US made getting a general class license "too easy" for the European regulators. I have an extra class license now but only use Winlink in Canada these days - haven't even done that for the last two years due to Covid restrictions.

Also, I used saildocs a great deal for weather. I was never asked to contribute to it.

I did however once meet a member of the Sailmail board of directors. He was very upset that Amateur Radio operators got to use a service for free that competed with their pay for service.

73, Brian N7BMW

[goboatingnow]

CEPT TR 61-01 allows any country following these principals to operate for a limited time in the CEPT participating country ie where the license is a HARAC one. The US has an equivalent reciprocation for CEPT license holders.

The US did not adopt TR 61-02 which was the harmonised license. ( HARAC ) process hence swooping US/CEPT licenses isn’t possible

[bdgWesternMass]

Hello all,

I’m enjoying this thread. I recently got an arrrl license with the intention of using it in the boat.

I was wondering if anyone can specifically outline the rules regarding email gateways and amateur radio.

I have been running my own mail server since the 90’s and have a line of site view of a radio tower on the highest point in Massachusetts.

When I finally get down to work my plan was to connect my network to the packet modem. I’m sure this fine but I’m wondering if I was out traveling are the radio packet modem gateways to the internet all over the world?
Is subscribe to winlink sailmail the only legitimate access to the internet through radio?

[Brian.D]

THIS!

Originally Posted by stormalong

I did however once meet a member of the Sailmail board of directors. He was very upset that Amateur Radio operators got to use a service for free that competed with their pay for service.

73, Brian N7BMW

They are not the same therefore, cannot compete. Not sure where this director was coming from. Choice is good.

And, both emails were delivered. I knew the Davis one would be no problem, but was not 100% sure about the UK email sent. I know a few others in different countries. Just curious what kind of notification I will get from WinLink Express RMS.

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by Brian.D

...And, both emails were delivered. I knew the Davis one would be no problem, but was not 100% sure about the UK email sent. I know a few others in different countries. Just curious what kind of notification I will get from WinLink Express RMS.

The issue is not where the e-mails are destined, they can go anywhere. The issue is where the radio stations that handle them are licensed (not located). You can try to send e-mail between two US-based e-mail addresses, but if you pass it through a foreign radio station (over the air) then third party rules apply (exception - technical - if both sender and recipient are licensed amateur radio operators then it is not considered third-party traffic - but the system can't know this unless both addresses are registered operators in Winlink). If you have a current version of RMS it will simply tell you that it can't pass traffic through foreign station X using your US callsign because no third-party agreement exists. Older version provided no warning. The CMS network, as of two years ago, now checks again at the server level, looks at the license of the sending and receiving radio stations and holds the message if it does not meet the rules.

Third-Party Traffic
Third-party traffic is any message transmitted between licensed amateurs that is either from or to a non-licensee. Between amateur stations in the Western Hemisphere (with a few exceptions) there is no restriction on third-party traffic being passed over amateur radio. Many countries outside of the Western Hemisphere also now permit third-party traffic over amateur radio. Messages between duly licensed amateurs if they originate from or are delivered over the Internet are not considered third-party traffic. Third-party traffic rules only deal with that portion of the message path which is transmitted over the amateur radio spectrum.

For example: if a message originates from a non-amateur as an internet email in the U.K. and is delivered to a U.S. amateur over the radio from a gateway station in the US, no third-party rule is broken even though the U.K. does not allow third-party traffic over amateur channels. This is because third-party traffic is permitted between two US stations. Likewise, a message originating from a U.S. amateur and passed by radio to a U.S. gateway is okay even if it is addressed to the Internet address of a non-amateur in the U.K. Again, third-party traffic is permitted between the two US stations.

The Winlink System servers automatically enforce US FCC rules regarding third-party traffic when at least one station in a circuit is licensed in the USA. US rules prohibit third party traffic between stations licensed in the US and a foreign country that does not have a third-party traffic agreement with the United States. A list of those that do is kept at: Third-Party Operating Agreements. Should a message from or to an internet email address be proposed for transfer between stations where third party traffic is prohibited it will be held at the CMS for delivery by a pathway that will not violate the governing rules, and a service message will be delivered instead describing the situation and how the message may be legally retrieved. If a Winlink user tries to send third-party traffic through stations that do not permit such traffic, the message is refused and a service message will be delivered instead, describing the situation and how the message may be legally sent. These Winlink Terms and Conditions of Use are more conservative than the governing FCC rules in some situations.

Users and sysops must make themselves familiar with third-party rules for the country in which they are operating as well as linking with if they are exchanging messages from or to internet addresses or non-amateurs. US gateway sysops should know that §97.219(c) provides protection for licensees operating as part of a message forwarding system. "...the control operators of forwarding stations that retransmit inadvertently communications that violate the rules in this Part are not accountable for the violative communications. They are, however, responsible for discontinuing such communications once they become aware of their presence."

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ed-221229.html

https://arrlok.blogspot.com/2019/07/...y-traffic.html

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

Hello all,

I’m enjoying this thread. I recently got an arrrl license with the intention of using it in the boat.

I was wondering if anyone can specifically outline the rules regarding email gateways and amateur radio.

I have been running my own mail server since the 90’s and have a line of site view of a radio tower on the highest point in Massachusetts.

When I finally get down to work my plan was to connect my network to the packet modem. I’m sure this fine but I’m wondering if I was out traveling are the radio packet modem gateways to the internet all over the world?
Is subscribe to winlink sailmail the only legitimate access to the internet through radio?

There's no internet access via HF radio -- there's not enough bandwidth at HF frequencies. Winlink and Sailmail are two low bandwidth ways to send and receive email. Not indeed to access the Internet.



Packet radio is VHF and UHF, not enough range to help you at sea.

[Bycrick]

There’s nothing new here. The problems with reciprocal licensing have been around since amateur radio started. It has always been more-or-less of a hassle.

Third-party traffic restrictions have also been a problem from the very beginning of ham radio. The carriers who got paid for sending messages didn’t want hams sending them for free. But I was unlikely to get into trouble if I told another ham "Hey, call up my father and wish him happy birthday."

Similar problems arose when hams started using "phone patches" to allow a radio conversation to be connected to a telephone.

So the rules haven’t changed all that much. But clearly a system like Winlink is clearly mostly third-party traffic, and with a central control point (more or less) easy to enforce some ancient rules that were often ignored in the past.

If you want to legally send messages to anybody, anywhere, on any subject (like "business”), either pay the money for Sailmail, or pay for some kind of satellite connection.

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There's no internet access via HF radio -- there's not enough bandwidth at HF frequencies. Winlink and Sailmail are two low bandwidth ways to send and receive email. Not indeed to access the Internet.



Packet radio is VHF and UHF, not enough range to help you at sea.

I thought the a pactor modem over SSB is what winlink and sailmail used?
I guess my simple question would what are they connecting to?

I have been around enough to understand the limits of 300 baud modem...

[Bycrick]

"This whole issue got raised because certain US amateurs resented sharing their band segments with Winlink and other digital services. They have done everything they can to get rid of digital communications. They constantly complain to the FCC and search for ways to restrict traffic."

Sort of true. But, as usual, there’s another side. Historically, the ham frequencies weren’t channelized. You could pick any frequency as long as nobody else was actively using it. One of the coherent arguments about services like Winlink is whether they should be able to claim a frequency as "theirs" even if they’re not actively using it right now. Note that the same battles were fought years ago when VHF repeaters were in effect squatting on particular frequencies. It took years of arguments before it was finally "coordinated."

[stormalong]

Both are services are for sending and receiving email only. There is a function (saildocs) that allows you to extract some info off the web, package it as an email and send it to winlink or sailmail user. You cannot "surf" the net as you would on an internet connected computer.

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by Bycrick

"This whole issue got raised because certain US amateurs resented sharing their band segments with Winlink and other digital services. They have done everything they can to get rid of digital communications. They constantly complain to the FCC and search for ways to restrict traffic."

Sort of true. But, as usual, there’s another side. Historically, the ham frequencies weren’t channelized. You could pick any frequency as long as nobody else was actively using it. One of the coherent arguments about services like Winlink is whether they should be able to claim a frequency as "theirs" even if they’re not actively using it right now. Note that the same battles were fought years ago when VHF repeaters were in effect squatting on particular frequencies. It took years of arguments before it was finally "coordinated."

I guess this is why I got curious I'm US based ham and I love sharing bandwidth and fiddling with devices. I was wondering if there is still a like minded group that I could work with.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

I thought the a pactor modem over SSB is what winlink and sailmail used?
I guess my simple question would what are they connecting to?

I have been around enough to understand the limits of 300 baud modem...

You are not connecting to the Internet. That's not the only way to convey data across space.

[Brian.D]

Winlink Express does not claim anything. However, like all "nets", there has to be a frequency that one can go to and expect a connection of some type, be it data or voice. It is just like the MMSN on 14300 kHz, not their frequency, but it is there all the time so people know where to go. However, they do get a little possessive at times.