Help with ssb choice

[RidgeRunner]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's true that the great majority of cruisers never leave civilized coastal area, and that for them HF DSC is not needed. In fact, for them, HF radio altogether is not really needed except maybe for fun.


But a person like the OP who is choosing an HF radio should keep in mind -- if you DO ever need the HF radio for distress signalling -- in a remote area or in the middle of an ocean -- it WON'T WORK without DSC.

I won't argue the value of HF DSC (I wouldn't leave the dock without it), however, there are many cruisers in remote areas with older, non-DSC SSB radios. For the record, the USCG still monitors 4125, 6215, 8291, and 12290 kHz for voice distress calling: not much help in the Med perhaps, but these bands cover several hundred miles off the US east and west coasts, and big chunks of the Pacific (via station Guam). Additionally, there are the ham bands - there is always someone on 14300, and those guys love to help out in an emergency.

Again, I'm not saying it's ideal, but there are many cruisers still relying on HF voice for their main emergency comms.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by RidgeRunner

I won't argue the value of HF DSC (I wouldn't leave the dock without it), however, there are many cruisers in remote areas with older, non-DSC SSB radios. For the record, the USCG still monitors 4125, 6215, 8291, and 12290 kHz for voice distress calling: not much help in the Med perhaps, but these bands cover several hundred miles off the US east and west coasts, and big chunks of the Pacific (via station Guam). Additionally, there are the ham bands - there is always someone on 14300, and those guys love to help out in an emergency.

Again, I'm not saying it's ideal, but there are many cruisers still relying on HF voice for their main emergency comms.

The fact that there are many cruisers still out there hoping that they will be able to get some help in case of need via voice hailing on HF radio, does not contradict anything I wrote.

As the Russians like to say: hope dies last.

If you have a skilled ham operator on board, that may be very different situation. I'm a ham myself and agree with you about the power of that community.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[btrayfors]

Folks. I would caution against any sweeping pronouncements re: DSC vs. (marine) SSB voice.

While it is true that in some parts of the world there are no longer emergency HF shore stations which are routinely listening on SSB, it is also true that ALL of these actually have the capacity to come up on SSB voice when alerted to an emergency. This is a part of the GMDSS protocol.

Further, it is true that in a bonafide emergency, a mariner may use ANY MEANS to attract attention and get help. This includes transmission on the ham bands -- or other bands for that matter -- whether licensed or not. With well over a million hams licensed worldwide and hundreds of them actually on the bands at any time, it is not just possible but very likely that an emergency voice call would be heard. There are many examples of help obtained exclusively through the use of voice SSB, both marine and ham.

Finally, the DSC picture is changing, and not in a good way. Already a deeply flawed system, the availability of affordable HF/DSC transceivers is rapidly declining. In a kerfuffle with Icom over a DSC function on Icom radios, the M802 (and the VHF M604) are no longer being imported to the U.S. Dealers are running out of stock. This is unlikely to be resolved quickly, and there is no relief in sight. The more expensive Icom M801 is no longer available in Europe, due to regulatory problems.

This is not a pretty picture, and many mariners are likely to draw erroneous conclusions and make serious mistakes in choosing long-distance emergency communications equipment.

Bill
WA6CCA

[RidgeRunner]

Hey Bill, could you explain a little more about this "kerfuffle"? I remember hearing something similar this summer about some of their VHF's, but would like to learn more about this issue with the M802.

[btrayfors]

Originally Posted by RidgeRunner

Hey Bill, could you explain a little more about this "kerfuffle"? I remember hearing something similar this summer about some of their VHF's, but would like to learn more about this issue with the M802.

The situation is confused and is evolving. Here's what I think I know:

1. The FCC has determined that a DSC alarm function as implemented on (some? all?) Icom marine radios fails to meet the international standard.

2. Icom found that some of their radios could be made compliant via a software fix. However, the M604 VHF transceiver and the M802 MF/HF transceiver could not be fixed this way. A hardware modification would be necessary.

3. It's not clear what Icom plans to do about this (new version? new radio? other?), but for the moment they've suspended the shipment of M802's to the U.S.

4. Shipments to overseas dealers apparently continue, and it MAY be possible to obtain a radio through these dealers, or through a U.S. dealer in collaboration with an overseas dealer.

5. In any case, it's very likely that the price of the M802...if available at all....will increase. And, if Icom decides to come out with a replacement model you can be sure the price with be steep.

All of this leaves the U.S. mariner looking for a new SSB installation in a very difficult position. There are other DSC HF marine radios on the market, but these are intended for the commercial shipping market and are for most recreational mariners prohibitively expensive.

What to do?

For me, the question is simple. By all means go ahead and fit a VHF transceiver with DSC. But for MF/HF SSB, forget about DSC. A plain old non-DSC marine transceiver or a ham rig remain very useful, IMHO. I have both aboard my boat (see below) and have never wanted for anything else.

Bill
WA6CCA

[transmitterdan]

Bill,

Is there any FCC docket number tracking this issue? I tried to find anything in the notoriously hard to search FCC database but only found an old issue with some DSC radios and text messages.

It would be a shame to put the only DSC HF radio off the market unless the problem is truly hazardous which I doubt.

Dan

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

. . . For me, the question is simple. By all means go ahead and fit a VHF transceiver with DSC. But for MF/HF SSB, forget about DSC. . . .

I don't understand the logic, Bill. "Forget about DSC" because the alarm sound on the M802 doesn't meet standards? Does that make the whole DSC function useless? Scratching my head here.

Raising someone on the ham bands is a great way to get a message over, but would you really want to be deprived of what is now the one official GMDSS mandated, standard method of distress signalling, the only method which is required to be supported by coast stations? The only one you can count on?

The official GMDSS coast station list of the IMO doesn't even MENTION voice hailing capability. There is no role any more and no more official support, for initiating a distress call by a voice call. The world has moved on quite a bit, since many of us first learned about distress signalling at sea.

See: http://www.imo.org/blast/blastDataHe...ilename=13.pdf

Here is the current watchkeeping requirement for coast stations:

"A – Coast stations
31.13 § 6 Those coast stations assuming a watch-keeping responsibility in the GMDSS shall maintain an automatic digital selective calling watch on frequencies and for periods of time as indicated in the information published in the List of Coast Stations and Special Service Stations (List IV). (WRC-07)"

http://life.itu.int/radioclub/rr/chapt-7.pdf

Ships are also not required to guard any voice channels in MF/HF.

Some coast guards do continue to guard HF distress channels (the U.S. Coast Guard and many others have already abandoned 2182), but for how long? And how carefully? HF marine radios, even those sold for use on non-SOLAS vessels, have been REQUIRED to have DSC for almost 20 years by now.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

The situation is confused and is evolving.

Bill
WA6CCA

Attachment 138241

Talk about confused and evolving.......is that a cassette player I see there!?!?!

[btrayfors]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Talk about confused and evolving.......is that a cassette player I see there!?!?!

Not exactly. It's an AM/FM radio and cassette player. It stays tuned to the local NPR station, usually, and the cassette player is useful for the hundreds of specially recorded cassettes I have :-)

With the advent of FM radio and it's spread some 55 years ago it was believed by many that AM radio was dead. Well it isn't. It's alive and well. I listen to ESPN sports radio at breakfast each morning on an old AM radio....actually a quality RDF from the last century :-)

For an old techie like me, it's infuriating that many folks these days have the idea that newer is always better. Well, sometimes it is. I love my iPhone. But, sometimes it isn't. I defy anyone to come up with an HF radio with better transmit and receive audio than my 65 year old tubed Collins KWM2A. Or a better sextant than the Plath micrometer sextants which are 50 years old or more.

Bill

[btrayfors]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Bill,

Is there any FCC docket number tracking this issue? I tried to find anything in the notoriously hard to search FCC database but only found an old issue with some DSC radios and text messages.

It would be a shame to put the only DSC HF radio off the market unless the problem is truly hazardous which I doubt.

Dan

Don't know about docket number, if any.

Yes it would be...and already is...a shame. I don't think the "problem" is truly hazardous at all, at least as described to me. But, hey...it's a crazy world.

Only thing we can do, it seems, is to wait and see over the next few months.

B.

[btrayfors]

Dockhead,

I'm not gonna get into a long conversation here re: the merits of HF/DSC. That would be a very long conversation.

Suffice it to say that, "DSC is primarily designed to establish a radio call. When a DSC call is received, the receiving station will use the DSC protocol to acknowledge the call. At this point the two parties will move to a working frequency and a different mode (voice, fax, RTTY) to complete the call."

Example: if you use VHF/DSC to call a buddy boat, the default settings will automatically change the frequency of the receiving boat as well as the transmitting boat to a VOICE channel.

DSC is to alert other stations, after which they typically continue the conversation via VOICE, RTTY, Fax, etc.).

On this side of the Atlantic the USCG maintains a VOICE watch on several HF frequencies, as well as Channel 16 VHF. Additionally, the Shipcom's Coast Stations WLO and KLB maintain a 24/7 watch on HF marine frequencies. These two organizations alone cover entire US waters and far out into the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Bill

[ka4wja]

Okay, we have three topics being discussed in one thread...how cool!
M-710 vs. SEA235...
HF-DSC vs. SSB Voice (for calling, signaling, distress, etc.)
The FCC vs. Icom kerfuffle..
And, I've got some good info for everyone, on all 3!!
(but, think I'll answer 'em one-at-at-time)

First off justsammer,
The short answer is, get the M-710...(in my opinion, it is the better radio)...
But, if casual ham radio operating is important to you, neither is a good choice...

The long answer is, assuming both in excellent condition and programmed properly, nothing wrong with either....
But, neither is a seamless "ham radio"....both are marine HF radios, which can be used on the ham radio bands...and neither is an MF/HF-DSC-HF Marine Radiotelephone...
The SEA had a large market following in the US Pac NW, and as such you're sure to find plenty of used ones cheap in your location...
But, some of the M-710's you see on the market are from shore stations, etc., so they can be a great "almost new" radio...

Originally Posted by justsammer

Hi folks,
I'm outfitting my boat for long term cruising. Hoping maybe this could be a relatively simple question. Which is a better radio, the icom m710 or sea 235, in regards to quality and useful capabilities, or just simply the better choice for a simple cruising boat? I've never used an ssb or ham. So, at this point I can't say that I would like to have any specific functions, and I don't know how much I would desire ham functions. The question is specifically about the icom ic m710 (not pro), vs sea 235. Those are my two choices right now. Thanks for the help.

Originally Posted by justsammer

Guys, thanks for the info. Here's a more specific question... should I be considering the sea 235 for its advantages in switching over to ham capabilities so easily? Is this a big consideration? If not, why not?

Also, Dave, you mention your using your 710 for ham. How was that switch to ham capabilities made on your radio?
Thanks

Justsammer, you've not mentioned whether casual ham radio use is of interest to you???
If it is, then neither of these radios is a good choice....sorry about being so blunt, but neither will be convenient to use for casual ham radio operating (where you'd want the ability to "tune around"), but either would work for "channelized" operation, such as specific radio nets and/or winlink/sailmail, etc...(but, here the M-710 is the better radio because of its design for 100% duty-cycle operation)

FYI, here is how you program the user channels....not exactly a fun way to tune-in someone on 7.157.3 LSB!

From my docs file, For the Icom M-710 and M-710RT...

To change a RX (Receive frequency):
1) Go to the user channel you want to place the new frequency by turning the knobs, or using the keypad.
2) Press the CH/FREQ button to display both the RX and TX frequencies.
3) Press the CE button to make a change to the RX (receive) frequency. The CE icon (small triangle) will appear to the right of the RX icon.
4) Enter in the new frequency entirely (including a final zero, if needed), then press RX button and hold it until you hear a “beep” sound followed by two more “beeps”. This signifies a new frequency has been entered, and the CE symbol will disappear. The line between the two frequencies may also change depending on whether the RX and TX frequencies are now the same or differ (Simplex or Duplex).

To change a TX (Transmit frequency):
1) Go to the user channel you want to place the new frequency by turning the knobs or keypad.
2) Press the CH/FREQ button to display both the RX and TX frequencies.
3) Press the TX button, and the flashing TX icon appears on the left of the display with a “beep”.
4) Press the CE button, and The CE icon (small triangle) appears next to the flashing TX with a beep.
5) Enter in the new transmit frequency (remembering to add a final zero, if needed).
6) Press the TX button and hold until you hear three “beeps” and the CE symbol will disappear. Press the TX button again. You will hear another “beep” and the flashing TX will disappear. The new transmit frequency is now ready for use.

Now, you see why so many recommend the M-802 (or the older M-700Pro) for those who want both Marine HF ("SSB") and ham radio HF comms on-board!


Justsammer, you mention you've never used either ham or marine SSB, but somehow have assumed you have only two choices of radios???
This confuses me....
I understand if budget constraints make buying a new $1800 Icom M-802 out-of-reach...and the M-710 is a good radio...
Icom SSB Radio Kits & Components

But understand there are other choices...
{there's a guy in texas with a Icom tested (refurbbed?) M-700Pro with AT-130 tuner, for $725, for sale right now...
ICOM IC-M700PRO HF SSB Marine Radio (bench tested) w/AT-130 tuner | eBay }

So, without knowing your application, and without you knowing how these radios work, it becomes quite difficult to answer your question!!

But, the good news is you can figure all of this, in short order, for free!!

Please have a look at these videos....play 'em all the way in order, and they will all make sense....these are FREE, nothing is being "promoted" nor "sold", they are just a public service....(but, please forgive the less than professional production, as there was no script, no cameraman, etc., just me, my camera, and my radios....and my 40+ years of experience....and please ignore my crappy editing...)

Maritime HF Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


HF-DSC Comms
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY



Icom M-802 Instruction Videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr


Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY

VHF-DSC
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF



Hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Okay, we have three topics being discussed in one thread...how cool!.....

Hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John

Five topics, you missed out on the quality of modern small and portable receivers and also Lancha Chilotas......

[ka4wja]

Bill nailed most of what I understand as well...
But, I'd like to add some further info, in red... (some, that I got from an Icom rep, off-the-record)...and finally a bit of opinion....

Originally Posted by btrayfors

The situation is confused and is evolving. Here's what I think I know:

1. The FCC has determined that a DSC alarm function as implemented on (some? all?) Icom marine radios fails to meet the international standard.

2. Icom found that some of their radios could be made compliant via a software fix. However, the M604 VHF transceiver and the M802 MF/HF transceiver could not be fixed this way. A hardware modification would be necessary. (or physical firmware change)

3. It's not clear what Icom plans to do about this (new version? new radio? other?), but for the moment they've suspended the shipment of M802's to the U.S.
The rep told me the engineering staff was busy with the GM-800 boondoggle (why Icom waited 10 years after Cohban, Sailor, JRC, and Furuno, to then try to enter the commercial GMDSS market is a "marketing screw-up", that the engineering dept is taking the blame for!
But, with the GM-800 (24vdc/110vac) GMDSS compliant MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radiotelephone, still waiting "approval", the engineering dept was now able to focus on software / hardware changes mandated by FCC!!!
(as of last month, they said they WERE going to make the changes needed, and the M-802 will be back ready to ship "shortly"....but, I couldn't get an answer to what "shortly" meant!)

4. Shipments to overseas dealers apparently continue, and it MAY be possible to obtain a radio through these dealers, or through a U.S. dealer in collaboration with an overseas dealer.
Actually you CAN obtain a new-in-box, with warranty, M-802 directly from some US dealers (Dockside Radio has 'em)...
Icom SSB Radio Kits & Components

And/or from some offshore/overseas dealers as well (just last week, talked to a guy who bought one out of Asia, and it can in factory sealed boxes, with US warranty card, etc...and works great!)

Not sure if the current inventory will last until Icom's "shortly" time-frame runs out....but, if you want an M-802, but it now!!


5. In any case, it's very likely that the price of the M802...if available at all....will increase. And, if Icom decides to come out with a replacement model you can be sure the price with be steep.
The GM-800 isn't really the M-802's replacement, but it is about twice the price....initial price (including the remote tuner and all cables) that I saw quoted as $4995 USD...
But, remember this is 24vdc radio....
(basically it's a revamped M-801GMDSS, with a slick new user interface and full-color LCD screen)

If they simply fix the issue with the M-802, the price should be the same as before...or close to it, anyway....(just my opinion here!!)


All of this leaves the U.S. mariner looking for a new SSB installation in a very difficult position. There are other DSC HF marine radios on the market, but these are intended for the commercial shipping market and are for most recreational mariners prohibitively expensive.
Yes, whether Furuno, Sailor / Thrane (Cohban), JRC, etc. they are all $7000 to $12,000 radios, and are all 24vdc / 110vac radios!!


What to do?

For me, the question is simple. By all means go ahead and fit a VHF transceiver with DSC. But for MF/HF SSB, forget about DSC. A plain old non-DSC marine transceiver or a ham rig remain very useful,
Of course, Bill and I disagree here...
I won't ramble on about the virtues of DSC....
(and Bill hasn't mentioned that we agree that the GMDSS is like a horse designed-by-committee!

But, with >80 HF-DSC coast stations worldwide and >450 MF-DSC coast stations worldwide....and with 1000's and 1000's of merchant vessels plying the seas and oceans worldwide, ALL monitoring DSC only, not SSB Voice, I think Marine DSC actually IS something that the offshore mariner should have on-board...

IMHO. I have both aboard my boat (see below) and have never wanted for anything else.

Bill
WA6CCA

Fair winds...

John

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Dockhead,

I'm not gonna get into a long conversation here re: the merits of HF/DSC. That would be a very long conversation.

Suffice it to say that, "DSC is primarily designed to establish a radio call. When a DSC call is received, the receiving station will use the DSC protocol to acknowledge the call. At this point the two parties will move to a working frequency and a different mode (voice, fax, RTTY) to complete the call."

Example: if you use VHF/DSC to call a buddy boat, the default settings will automatically change the frequency of the receiving boat as well as the transmitting boat to a VOICE channel.

DSC is to alert other stations, after which they typically continue the conversation via VOICE, RTTY, Fax, etc.).

On this side of the Atlantic the USCG maintains a VOICE watch on several HF frequencies, as well as Channel 16 VHF. Additionally, the Shipcom's Coast Stations WLO and KLB maintain a 24/7 watch on HF marine frequencies. These two organizations alone cover entire US waters and far out into the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.

Bill

I think everyone understands that.

But establishing the call is absolutely crucial in a distress situation - not some kind of optional extra.

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