Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Humm, I missed the party, it seems. What are the well known N2K issues with SH VHFs? I'm quite familiar with the ICom issues, but not SH.

The GX6000 and GX1850 are thought to have the same nmea2000 library implementation and thus share the same problems. When scanning nmea2000 for gps to use, they only find a handful of devices and almost never a GPS. When that finally succeeds it doesn’t work: the GPS or the whole nmea2000 network must be powered on after the radio is powered on or it won’t work. So disappointing... like a couple kids hacked the code together by copy and pasting bits found on the net

The big question is what the GX2400 does... it seems the 1850 with internal GPS has been discontinued quietly. Warranty replacement was refused to me because they claim it operates normally

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Your first clue to the problem is that Standard Horizon and Icom only support NMEA 2000 on a few of their radios.

I think the engineers are still surprised that they finally got 0183 working.

Yeah, SH had trouble there as well, with their single ended serial ports. Everything from Yeasu (HAM radio) is good but everything added for their marine radios is problematic. The 1850, 6000 and now the 2400 should be perfect radios.

But there is trouble everywhere: the Vesper Cortex feels heavenly until you hear the reviews about 1-2 seconds audio delay, bad squelch etc. They should put the Vesper software in a Standard Horizon radio

I guess the Icom 605 is okay....

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I guess the Icom 605 is okay....

When we replaced our 604s with 605s in 2018... I thought the NMEA2000 interface would solve displaying VHF-received distress call positions on our plotter.

Nope. Still had to use the NEA0183 interface for that.

I did like the 605s, though.

-Chris

[wholybee]

I would be interested in the results of your tests. I would guess that it has nothing to do with compatibility between brands, but that some of this functionality isn't available in some (many) models at all.

I do know that an MOB message is received by my Vesper AIS and will plot on OpenCPN. My standard horizon VHF will receive a position report, but to plot/read it is so cumbersome it is practically useless-same with any received DSC message except MOB. My radio is only connected to receive GPS/AIS from the NMEA but, not to transmit to it. So I can't easily test if a received DSC message is sent to other devices.

Though there is a menu item to select what 0183 sentences are sent, maybe getting it to work is as simple as that.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yeah, SH had trouble there as well, with their single ended serial ports. Everything from Yeasu (HAM radio) is good but everything added for their marine radios is problematic. The 1850, 6000 and now the 2400 should be perfect radios.

But there is trouble everywhere: the Vesper Cortex feels heavenly until you hear the reviews about 1-2 seconds audio delay, bad squelch etc. They should put the Vesper software in a Standard Horizon radio

I guess the Icom 605 is okay....

Maybe I should stick to my original plan when I add AIS... Ignore dial from plotter capability, don't bother hooking my GX1850s up to anything and let them just do standalone GPS / DSC stuff. Let the AIS plot DSC distress calls and live with the rest being a little limited.



As standalone radios at the helm (with RAM mics in the cabin), my pair of GX1850s has been great. But it sounds like I should have just gotten the GX1800 (with GPS) for a few dollars less, as the NMEA2000 ports are probably not very useful.

[Kamen]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

But it sounds like I should have just gotten the GX1800 (with GPS) for a few dollars less, as the NMEA2000 ports are probably not very useful.

A future software update might address the N2K issues. The N2K port could become useful.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The GX6000 and GX1850 are thought to have the same nmea2000 library implementation and thus share the same problems. When scanning nmea2000 for gps to use, they only find a handful of devices and almost never a GPS. When that finally succeeds it doesn’t work: the GPS or the whole nmea2000 network must be powered on after the radio is powered on or it won’t work. So disappointing... like a couple kids hacked the code together by copy and pasting bits found on the net

The big question is what the GX2400 does... it seems the 1850 with internal GPS has been discontinued quietly. Warranty replacement was refused to me because they claim it operates normally

Wow, that's pretty bad. I'd say discovering and using a GPS is the most basic of basic functionality.


What astonishes and appalls me is that these are NEMA 2000 Certified products, yet the most basic function doesn't work. And that's because NMEA 2000 certification doesn't test any of it. It doesn't test any application level functionality. Nothing, nada, none at all. Doesn't look at a single PGN other than the network management PGNs, and certainly doesn't look at proper exchange of PGNs.


ICOM had similar problems early on with the 605 and fixed some of them. But they still have significant issues if you have two or more 605's on the same network. On bigger boats, multiple VHFs is common. On my last boat, when you would turn on the second VHF, the radars would all throw errors. I tracked it down to the exact PGN interchange and sent it all the ICOM, but nothing ever became of it.

[tanglewood]

BTW, I have two GX6000 on my current boat. Won't buy another ICOM after their unwillingness to fix their N2K issues. But my GXs are wired exclusively with 0183, and seem to work fine. And I don't use any of the AIS functionality in the VHF. Those outputs are disconnected and I use a real AIS device.


After going to 100% N2K on a couple of past boats, on recent boats I have reversed to significantly pair back on N2K, simply because of this sort of hassle. It was a gigantic time sink to get things working, and keep them working over time - much like life with a Windows machine. It will consume your life, so just step away.


Now I use N2K almost exclusively for Maretron monitoring, so it's nearly a proprietary bus. And I emphasize "proprietary" because Maretron is a good example of a company that has done their own things is some aspects of N2K that creates significant compatibility problems with other vendors.


Navigation-wise, I only have a backup GPS, backup depth sensor, and weather device on N2K. All other navigation systems (radars, AP, charting, fish finder, AIS, Sat compass, VHFs, sonar) are done with 0183. It takes more planning and wiring to do, but is completely deterministic and works 100% of the time with no errors.


N2K is just a massive disappointment. It COULD be so good, but has managed to fall flat on its face just short of the finish line. It does work most of the time for small networks. But as you pile on more stuff, you quickly run into these issues that all have roots in an incomplete specification, and lack of compliance testing. But it's been 20 years like this and whole product lines, and even whole companies have been built around different interpretations of how it should work. So the horse is out of the barn, and isn't going back in. Shame on NMEA.

[KP44]

My Standard Horizon works well with my Garmin 740xx plotter. They use the same remote GPS antenna and I have seen no problems.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

When we replaced our 604s with 605s in 2018... I thought the NMEA2000 interface would solve displaying VHF-received distress call positions on our plotter.

Nope. Still had to use the NEA0183 interface for that.

I did like the 605s, though.

-Chris

Oh wow... I actually think this works with my B&G V50 as well as with the Standard Horizon GX1850.

The channel/mode/power PGN and the DSC call PGN seem to work... it’s detecting and using GPS sensors on the network that is the problem.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I would be interested in the results of your tests. I would guess that it has nothing to do with compatibility between brands, but that some of this functionality isn't available in some (many) models at all.

I do know that an MOB message is received by my Vesper AIS and will plot on OpenCPN. My standard horizon VHF will receive a position report, but to plot/read it is so cumbersome it is practically useless-same with any received DSC message except MOB. My radio is only connected to receive GPS/AIS from the NMEA but, not to transmit to it. So I can't easily test if a received DSC message is sent to other devices.

Though there is a menu item to select what 0183 sentences are sent, maybe getting it to work is as simple as that.

I just checked my Vesper XB8000 documentation: yes it has a time-shared DSC receiver, yes it sends the DSC message on nmea0183, no it does not send the DSC PGN on nmea2000.

It’s sickening, but documentation may not have been updated while firmware was so there’s another thing to verify.

The problem with nmea0183 is that it is device to device instead of device to all devices on the network. I don’t want to havemy plotter powered up just to get position data to my radio.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

BTW, I have two GX6000 on my current boat. Won't buy another ICOM after their unwillingness to fix their N2K issues. But my GXs are wired exclusively with 0183, and seem to work fine. And I don't use any of the AIS functionality in the VHF. Those outputs are disconnected and I use a real AIS device.


After going to 100% N2K on a couple of past boats, on recent boats I have reversed to significantly pair back on N2K, simply because of this sort of hassle. It was a gigantic time sink to get things working, and keep them working over time - much like life with a Windows machine. It will consume your life, so just step away.


Now I use N2K almost exclusively for Maretron monitoring, so it's nearly a proprietary bus. And I emphasize "proprietary" because Maretron is a good example of a company that has done their own things is some aspects of N2K that creates significant compatibility problems with other vendors.


Navigation-wise, I only have a backup GPS, backup depth sensor, and weather device on N2K. All other navigation systems (radars, AP, charting, fish finder, AIS, Sat compass, VHFs, sonar) are done with 0183. It takes more planning and wiring to do, but is completely deterministic and works 100% of the time with no errors.


N2K is just a massive disappointment. It COULD be so good, but has managed to fall flat on its face just short of the finish line. It does work most of the time for small networks. But as you pile on more stuff, you quickly run into these issues that all have roots in an incomplete specification, and lack of compliance testing. But it's been 20 years like this and whole product lines, and even whole companies have been built around different interpretations of how it should work. So the horse is out of the barn, and isn't going back in. Shame on NMEA.

I have no other trouble with NMEA2000: everything works together 100%, except this radio.

I think my B&G V.50 radio does work flawless on nmea2000. My problem with that one is the wireless remote mike (no wired remote available) and also the attached mike of which it is sheer impossible to keep the PTT switch to keep transmitting for longer than a couple of seconds.. if you manage to get it to start transmitting at all.

How can Icom send and receive all AIS data on nmea2000 but not a simple, single DSC PGN?

[s/v Jedi]

Here are some other reports:

https://panbo.com/new-standard-horiz...00-matrix-vhf/

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-243392.html

https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-...-adopters.html

[Jerry Woodward]

Thanks Jedi for this eye-opening thread. I am in need of a new VHF and was seriously considering the SH GX2400. I have a full N2K network, Zeuss 2 MFD, Vesper XB8000, plus other N2K stuff not related to this issue. My main GPS source is the Vesper GPS and I assumed that any N2K enabled VHF would be able to acquire the Vesper GPS from the N2K network.

I was aware of the issues of not being able to call a AIS target from the chart plotter, but that didn't bother me too much: if the VHF has AIS, then you can simply select it from the VHF list of targets.
But if the VHF has trouble getting GPS from the N2K network, that is a big issue. I hope that issue has been resolved for the GX2400.

I am now looking more seriously at the B&G V50 as that should play nice with my Zeuss 2 plotter. But you and others seem to have a problem with the wireless remote. Other than that, you seem to be happy with the V50. If I don't need the remote, would you recommend the V50?
One thing that would be nice is if a DSC position request (as well as a distress call) would show up on the chart plotter. Can you comment on whether both of these radios will do that or just the V50?

[Kamen]

My experience is with a previous generation Navico hardware (Simrad NSS Evo2 MFD and Lowrance LINK8 VHF). Everything works. AIS targets and DSC position polling requests show up on the MFD and you can initiate DSC calls from the MFD.