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Old 15-04-2021, 04:41   #16
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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Taking a quick look at the published N2K PGNs, I only see one related to DSC, and it appears to be used to communicate a DSC distress call. It doesn't look like it describes an incoming non-distress call, nor is it a mechanism to initiate a call. So I think the only standardized functionality is for the VHF to send the PGN (129808) when a distress call is received, and for the plotter to receive that PGN and plot the location and nature of the distress.

Good point. Everything I've said above, relative to DSC position data, was about distress calls. Had my extra NMEA0183 connection been made from VHF to plotter, the MFD would have displayed the distress call location. Sorry I left that tidbit out...

I hadn't actually known about even that capability... until starting research after a local distress situation. Took me a long time to work out what wire needed to be connected where...

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Old 15-04-2021, 05:43   #17
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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When a DSC call is received it arrives without position data, but a capable chartplotter can look up the IMSI and see if the same vessel's position was previously received via AIS.
This is NOT true of a DSC emergency broadcast which most certainly does go out from the radio with position data included. Is the emergency call formatted fundamentally differently than a standard call?
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Old 15-04-2021, 05:58   #18
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

In this thread we can see the confusion... but I had hoped the manufacturers would get their stuff right....

So here to clear some of the things up:

1. DSC vs AIS. There are no AIS receivers/transceivers with DSC. The only time these two meet is when a DSC radio also has AIS. Plotters can combine these, see point further below.

2. DSC always has accurate GPS position. This is the reason that every DSC equipped marine VHF must have a position either from internal GPS or receive position from NMEA. Distress calls are the most important DSC call and would be useless without position.

3. Position polling is done by SAR after they receive your distress call. This can be a DSC distress but also Epirb etc. All they need to know is your MMSI and general vicinity. This is either sent directly in the distress call or it is triangulated by satellites receiving your Epirb transmissions that have no embedded GPS position.
Your DSC radio should have a GPS position fix on it’s display and have DSC position polling reply set to AUTO, which is default. SAR can poll your position from far away, using very high and powerful shore based antennas or from airplane and helicopter. This can work over hundreds of miles.
If you had activated an Epirb, it will also transmit a 121MHz homing signal that can be traced with direction finders but it is a dated method and DSC distress calls do not support it at all. This is why DSC position polling is more than just for buddy boating.

Also, there are DSC man overboard gadgets that you clip on your life vest and will transmit DSC distress MOB calls to all DSC equipped vessels in range.

4. Official NMEA2000 PGN’s are 129799 radio frequency, mode, power and 129808 DSC call information. I found both my B&G V50 and Standard Horizon GX1850 transmit both PGN’s, but in mysterious, not yet fully debugged ways.

5. On your modern plotter you have a “ships list” screen. This lists all ships known to the plotter from every source available: AIS, DSC and ARPA/MARPA. In this screen you can normally filter to see only AIS or only DSC etc. When you select a ship you get all it’s data that is available.
When my B&G plotter detects my B&G radio, it enables a “Call Ship” button on that ship information screen. It uses vendor proprietary PGN’s to set up the radio for a DSC individual call. When I turn that radio off, while keeping the other radio on, the button is disabled. Clearly no standard for this.
You can show all of these targets on your chart. I have been testing this and think I saw both radios successfully plot a DSC target... but not always. When a received DSC position is from my own MMSI, the B&G radio sends the PGN but the Standard Horizon does not. My plotter doesn’t plot either way and I tested that with a position several miles away from me as well. These messages must be filtered, which means that when you receive it from your handheld that is away from the mothership, it does not get plotted. But the radios know it and can navigate to it because they have GPS after all.

I am scanning my NMEA 2000 network using both Maretron and Actisense gear. I spent hours yesterday updating everything, fighting with Windows drivers, updating firmware and applications etc. It’s all running the latest now and knows about the latest manufacturers like Yacht Devices.

During all this I found some conflicts in my network so I had a lot of diversions to deal with.

6. The problems with Standard horizon and NMEA2000 are serious and well documented. They are not only for the GX1850 series but also the GX6000. The question is if it’s improved with the new GX2400. I found no info on that radio around NMEA2000 support yet.

As it stands now, you need to switch the radio and NMEA2000 or GPS on in a particular order or it won’t work at all. It’s ridiculous and SH’s claims of this being normal are outrageous as other radios demonstrate perfect behavior. Besides “living with it” the only solution I see is feeding the radio with NMEA0183 data besides the NMEA2000 connection. We had this mess before when plotter manufacturers started implementing NMEA2000. My problem with the US support group for SH (the manager) is that he straight out lies to customers. Ben Ellison of Panbo tells me he is probably instructed to do so from higher up but he knows all these guys and I simply can not tolerate someone lying to me like that.

I not sure if I covered all the issues mentioned in this thread so let me know if I missed something. As soon as I find more time and get a buddy with different MMSI to help I will be testing again
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Old 15-04-2021, 06:00   #19
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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In this thread we can see the confusion... but I had hoped the manufacturers would get their stuff right....

So here to clear some of the things up:

1. DSC vs AIS. There are no AIS receivers/transceivers with DSC. The only time these two meet is when a DSC radio also has AIS. Plotters can combine these, see point further below.

Take a look at the specs on this guy: https://www.alltekmarine.com/product...?bgid=3&gid=59


It very specifically mentions a DSC receiver. My understanding is that it's only to receive DSC emergency calls, not routine calls, but it's there.
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Old 15-04-2021, 06:12   #20
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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Take a look at the specs on this guy: https://www.alltekmarine.com/product...?bgid=3&gid=59


It very specifically mentions a DSC receiver. My understanding is that it's only to receive DSC emergency calls, not routine calls, but it's there.
Ah yes, DSC receivers. I find that totally useless as every boat should have a radio with class-D DSC system built in, which includes a dedicated DSC receiver.

Early DSC radios were limited, i.e. could transmit a distress call but no routine calls.
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Old 15-04-2021, 06:15   #21
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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Ah yes, DSC receivers. I find that totally useless as every boat should have a radio with class-D DSC system built in, which includes a dedicated DSC receiver.

Early DSC radios were limited, i.e. could transmit a distress call but no routine calls.

Agreed, it doesn't replace a full DSC radio or even come close. But it does mean that if you have AIS hooked up, but your DSC radios aren't feeding data to the plotter, the AIS unit will still provide data to plot the location of a DSC distress call.
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Old 15-04-2021, 06:27   #22
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

Wow... SOOOO much work to avoid hailing someone on CH16...

I have no doubt you are having fun sorting this out, but...

Still seems to be wildly impractical for the mass market.
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Old 15-04-2021, 06:41   #23
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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Wow... SOOOO much work to avoid hailing someone on CH16...

I have no doubt you are having fun sorting this out, but...

Still seems to be wildly impractical for the mass market.
Really?! I can understand that not everyone has their GMDSS certificate but you should know that DSC has taken over distress signaling and any monitoring of ch.16 is out of courtesy only, not mandatory anymore.

Please read up on it, as life may depend on it.
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Old 15-04-2021, 07:04   #24
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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Wow... SOOOO much work to avoid hailing someone on CH16...

When I discovered our "issue" and began troubleshooting... it had absolutely nothing to do with hailing other DSC radios.

Instead, I noticed a DSC distress call location SHOULD HAVE BEEN displayed on our plotter... and it wasn't. My main interest afterwards was about being able to quickly display the distress location so I could decide whether we were in a position to offer help.

And all that because a real-world event happened, semi-nearby, and I couldn't immediately tell whether we needed to divert our course toward the caller or not.

(Turned out, not, in that case... but it took us several minutes to recover the target coordinates, plot, etc. I wanted to be able to make future decisions, and to know a useful corrected course, within ~30 seconds...)

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Old 15-04-2021, 10:41   #25
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

Anyone reading this is probably interested in this new Icom handheld as well: the M94D is 6W, has built in GPS and full DSC as well as an AIS receiver. They claim received AIS targets can be selected for individual DSC calls etc.

It looks like a handheld version of the 605
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Old 15-04-2021, 11:04   #26
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

My Standard Horizon VHF dates from 2000 and it connected easily to my Garmin 5208 from 2008.

It wasn't "plug and play", I had to figure which two wires from the VHF were to be connected to which two wires from the plotter, but the owner's manuals from each made it pretty simple.
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Old 15-04-2021, 14:01   #27
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

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My Standard Horizon VHF dates from 2000 and it connected easily to my Garmin 5208 from 2008.

It wasn't "plug and play", I had to figure which two wires from the VHF were to be connected to which two wires from the plotter, but the owner's manuals from each made it pretty simple.
That sounds like nmea0183 though... I have no nmea0183 serial connections anymore and had hoped not to need them.

The current problem is not the communication with the plotter, I think that actually works; it is receiving the position data from the nmea2000 network. It can’t even do that reliably. To make this happen over nmea0183, a converter is needed, which costs more than the radio
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Old 15-04-2021, 14:06   #28
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

Out of curiosity, which Standard Horizon radios did you buy? I haven't hooked the NMEA2000 port on my GX1850s up to anything yet, but I've got the version with internal GPS, so they're not reliant on anything else for GPS position.
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Old 15-04-2021, 14:55   #29
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

Your first clue to the problem is that Standard Horizon and Icom only support NMEA 2000 on a few of their radios.

I think the engineers are still surprised that they finally got 0183 working.
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Old 15-04-2021, 16:49   #30
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Re: Help! Which DSC radios are compatible with which plotters?

Humm, I missed the party, it seems. What are the well known N2K issues with SH VHFs? I'm quite familiar with the ICom issues, but not SH.
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