Help In Selecting New Electronics

[TBW]

forgot
be sure to get the new satellite compass; not fluxgate
furuno scx 20/21

[moseriw]

keept it simple!!!
Log, transducer, wind via nmea2000 to XB8000 AIS/WLAN
Distrubution to cheap notebook and tablet

that is all you need - stay off propriarity plotters and to stay off OS troubles use linux(LXDE) with OpenCPN and CM93 Charts. You can use Navionics or others with OpenCPN too

[Siberian Sea]

I almost exclusively buy Furuno. Yes, it’s a bit more expensive but consider this..... your radar is going to give you trouble only when it’s being used, and it’s only being used because you need it.

[moseriw]

OK sorry furuno radar is required and surely the best choice. But be careful an check if digital interfacing to the NMEA Bus is possible!

So you buy the radome and the display is OpenCPN on your computer

[barnakiel]

In the AIS and VHF department, I would be very tempted to consider this:


https://www2.vespermarine.com/cortex


I think there is plenty of very good functionality with loads of Vesper experience on their earlier successful units.


barnakiel

[Capt Gary]

I've had a lot of Raymarine and have had very good luck with it. So long as you stick with the Seatalk system it is pretty simple. You can connect via NMEA, but I have not done that. Having said all that, I think Garmin might be the most versatile system to go with. I have had a little Garmin unit for going on 15 years and have moved it to three different boats without so much of a hiccup. Garmin seems to offer the most intuitive, simplest and versatile setups I have seen. Probably the lowest prices as well.

[Hoodsail]

Since you are updating your navigational electronics what about your crew safety electronics? If you add AIS are you going to include man-over-board AIS transmitters or go with personal locator beacons - that are individual EPIRBs?? The former can direct you to the individual overboard thru your AIS enabled chart plotter (with limited range, 5-8 nm) while the latter alerts a third party.

[Bruce K]

Go to your local commercial fishing boat harbour, and see what they use; always the toughest, most reliable, and easiest to use, usually with no cost restraints. Here its Furuno, Koden, Thrane&Thrane Sailor, all more expensive and less "toylike" than the common recreational brands. Also mostly stand alone, rather than MFD.

[Madehn]

Many thanks for all of the replies-- has given me a lot of information to chew through--thanks to all the forum members for sharing their knowledge so far

[ka4wja]

Madehn,

I really hope you don't mind some LONG answers and quite a bit of explanation??
'Cuz this isn't as easy as "buy this" or "buy that" (unless someone doesn't really care if it all works)...so

First some prefaces:

A) Ironically, one of our better informed members here (s/v Auspicious) just did a nice free webinar about "Cruising Electronics"....and in addition to some of my (and others) earlier postings on this subject, I'm sure you'll find it helpful!

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3147440

Please have a look at the video link below......after you've read all of this post, and watched some of the pertinent video playlists included here...


And, read what I write below, and what I've written in recent past....(yeah, I know there's a lot there....but, heck it's all free, so just take it all in....and enjoy!)



B) As for some specifics....
Well, the first thing that caught my eye was how great it is of you to tell us "where" you are located and where you'll be cruising! (Kemah, TX and the Caribbean) And, that you have a 51' sailboat with large battery bank, wind and solar! Madehn, you have no idea how nice that is....that you inform us of all of that! (most don't, you know....and without this info, all you'd get are answers that take a shotgun approach, rather than target your specific application)

{btw, I assume you have enough energy generation on-board already....and I assume you have already dealt with any panel shading from wind gen (or otherwise)....so, you're good-to-go....just want to remind everyone of the oft overlooked fact that many new pieces of electronics (as efficient as they are) actually use more power than many sailors expect (sometimes because they use all the new whiz-bang stuff, a lot!)....of course, maybe not a drastic amount more than what you're using now, but enough that you should be aware...}



C) Next, in regards to marine electronics upgrades / equipment brands / etc., ironically, just a week ago, I passed on some experienced / learned advice on this, to a friend sailing a sistership to my Annie Laurie...

Here's what I told him:

1) First rule of marine electronics (no matter what brand / what model):
It is the wiring / installation / programming / commissioning of each device AND the entire system, that "makes" or "breaks" the functionality / optimal use AND reliability of your marine electronics system...
(and, "commissioning" includes your education / training in how everything works)


A corollary to this rule is:

If you cannot design and install all of this yourself (usually easier than you think), you should make sure that whomever is selling/installing all of this understands BOTH this "first rule" above AND that you will not pay them their final payment until they show you that all is working well and that they educate you in how-to use everything...of course this costs them time/effort, and of course you need to make sure they know that you will pay them for that time/effort.

{---- Some of the "Raymarine vs. Garmin vs. Navico vs. Furuno" is like "Chevy vs. Ford vs. Dodge"....they all make some good models, and they all do offer some support/service....and while there are differences, at least half (and probably closer to 3/4's) of the choices between them are personal preferences / past experience-based / what the boat came with (good or bad)....BUT...}

But, there are some differences that are hard 'n clear, and can be thought of as "consensus"...here is what I mean....as a second corollary to this first rule:

Some brands are actually crap!

And, some brands are the tops in their niche!

And, some brands have crappy customer support (and some are great, but their products aren't the easiest to use)!
I will try to highlight those that are seen industry-wide as fitting into these categories rather than just my opinion:



~~~ Things that stand out as tops in their niche:
--- Radios (VHF and HF) = Icom (although as an active ham operator, I prefer the M-802 over the new M-803, no question that either is top of the heap....and Icom VHF's are also great) [please see below for Standard Horizon comments]
{a special mention goes to Sailor and Furuno, their commercial/GMDSS products are great, but their prices (which can be 3 to 4 times that of Icom consumer marine products) usually keep anyone from recommending them to pleasure boats..}

--- AIS = Vesper....no question....(fyi, Vesper and Icom, etc., work perfectly together...allowing DSC calls from AIS data)

--- Solar = Sunpower, Kyocera, Blue Sky, Morningstar




~~~ Things that are crap:
--- Sitex

--- Nasa Marine (I know some in UK or EU will say they are okay, but fact is they are very cheaply made, from poor/cheap designs, and many just don't work well at all, even right out-of-the-box)

--- LED nav light "upgrades" (LED's that plug into your existing Nav Light fixtures), reliability issues, RFI issues, unknown range thru your old fixtures...

--- "ultrasonic" wind transducers (yes, they're cool....and my parents had one on their Hinckley in the 1970's [yes, they've been around a LONG time, but were wicked expensive back then], but the way they are made these days they have problems with both reliability and RFI)
--- some of the "made in China" / off-brand AIS devices (that are heavily marketed on-line as well as by Miltech marine, etc.)
--- West Marine OEM-branded products (their electronics are usually OEM'd by Uniden, etc..but, always made by the lowest-bidder)




~~~ Things with poor customer service and/or only short-term support:
--- Navico (B&G, Simrad, Lowrance)...yes, the venerable B&G falls down on the job here, and even the Simard Commercial clients are frustrated these days...support for products stop rather quickly...

--- Garmin (used to be good....and some of their products are great, but customer support is getting pretty bad these days...and like Navico, their support dies off quickly...)

--- Standard Horizon (some of their radios are good, but forget about customer support / service)




~~~~ Things with good customer support / customer service:
--- Raymarine (surprisingly improved in the past 5 years...kinda' opposite of Garmin, which used to be great and now Garmin has fallen off)
--- Furuno (always great customer support and service, although their products aren't usually designed for ease-of-use, etc., some do like 'em...and while any "factory service" is pricey, there's no question that their support is fantastic)
--- Icom support is top-notch....actually as good or better than Furuno! (Icom USA and Icom UK are great...and over the years I've gotten some emails from Icom Japan engineering dept. that are superb....but I have no experience with Icom in other parts of the world)

--- Vesper support is also top-notch....and many times you can get your answer directly from Jeff, the company president.




Of course, I have my personal favs, but that's fairly irrelevant....the lists above are pretty well accepted by most in the marine electronics industry...


But, please remember main gist of Rule #1....a great install of made-in-China crap, will probably work better than a crappy install of Furuno stuff....just that the Furuno stuff will last a longer.






2) Rule #2 is:

"Integration" is nice, but you must make sure that each part of the marine electronics system (like Depth, and Radar, and even position fixing, etc.) can operate independently and provide you the information you need, without a functional "network", without everything working, without wi-fi, etc. etc..


This can be done....and in actuality is quite easy-peasy, and does not cost anymore $ (or at least not much more).

[whether NMEA2000 / SeaTalkNG, NMEA0183, SeaTalk, NavNet, etc. or wi-fi, etc...it CAN be done]



Any marine electronics guy that says otherwise is ignorant (and I'd question whether they are the ones to spend money with?)....any marine electronics guy that is this ignorant but is willing to learn and willing to design/install the system as you require, is probably okay....but, if unwilling and/or argues the points, please run away, fast!






3) I always put "reliability" as my primary criteria when choosing anything for on-board use, especially any critical device....and I always remind others that I'm a reliability fanatic....some think that I'm anti-tech (which I'm far from), and some think I'm stuck in the 20th Century (which I'm not)...


But, it's just that reliability co$ts....and reliability isn't sexy nor fancy....reliability isn't easy to market/advertise (last time I remember a national ad campaign highlighting quality/reliability was the old Fram oil filter ad: "you can pay me now, or pay me later")....
Of course, having a product installed that lasts decades and always works, is a great goal (and one that I attain, both on-board my boat, and with clients in my professional life), but that is only one part of reliability....


I place "ease-of-use" / "reliability-of-use" as my #2 criteria when choosing marine electronics...(and probably "low power consumption" is a close 3rd place!)

Most consumers (and sailors?) assume that if it has a touch screen it's cool....but, have you seen some marine touch screen when they are wet (with either fresh or salt water)? Or have you tried to use one in a heavy sea? (make sure whatever you buy also has "buttons" and "knobs", and that you know how-to use them)


Hmm...you see reliability isn't just "does the damn thing work, when you turn it on", it is also "how the heck can I use this friggin' thing, when I really need it"







4) Please remember that when upgrading marine electronics, you will likely be adding some new devices / adding to the system, or at least you're likely to be using it more....
And, this means that you will be using more electricity....
Yep, all those fancy new screens use MORE power than the older, plainer, devices....(you know it's not a myth that the average smart phone ends up using more electricity annually, than your average refrigerator at home!)


So, before you buy new marine electronics, please assess your energy budget and look closely at the power used by all the new electronics...


And, in most instances I recommend designing / installing more solar at the same time as doing a marine electronics upgrade....but, sometimes that isn't in the budget, so then it becomes all about "priorities"....hmmm, guess that's just like all parts of life, huh?






5) A point that is often overlooked (or is just given a cursory look in the "ease-of-use" discussion) is the literal ease-of-use and ergonomic design / installation of your marine electronics...
Of course, everyone has a depth display in the cockpit, but what about the lesser thought-of things?




--- A quick example is the cockpit mic for your primary VHF....which has become de rigueur, these days....in the old days sailors needed to run down below to use the VHF, or some spent the money on a handheld VHF, but were often frustrated by dead batteries...

---Another example is having radar on a big display in the cockpit....now, where I sail radar isn't needed much, but when you do need it, you NEED it and you NEED it at the helm...


These are easy-peasy examples....but 30 years ago, they were pipe-dreams!





--- And, at the Nav Station, keep the critical items, like a depth display and position display (either a GPS, or radio display with GPS position, or a chartplotter), in easy sight and ease-of-use / adjustment....


--- Since, outside of charting/planning a route, weather info/forecasts are a large part of the time/effort working at the Nav Station, please design-in how are you going to get weather info, when you are designing your Nav Station / the "how am I going to use the Nav Station" criteria is important here...
Please understand that even sat phones are not easy-peasy / seamless....in that vein (except for when within NOAA-VHF Weather Radio range), HF WeFax is the most easy-peasy / reliable weather source available...
Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY

And, if you're going to be using a computer when at sea, please take the time to design-in how you are going to do this, how you install/secure the computer so it stays where you need it and that you can easily use it....



--- And, if using your charts (paper charts) or chartplotter, or laptop, to plan your route / voyage, be sure to design this into account as well...

{yes, this seems like a no-brainer....but I do see many Nav Stations that use bungy cords to hold things down....really bad idea, btw....}
Can you easily use your chartplotter, etc....can you easily enter in a waypoint, while at sea / in heavy weather??
Can you easily see what you're working on / working with?




An example or three here:
--- HF radio (SSB) is usually used when sitting down....whether for weather info/forecasts, or cruising nets, or for safety/distress comms....
--- VHF radio is usually both, but when needing quick/easy VHF comms below decks, you'll likely be standing....and if sitting down with VHF it will usually be in the cockpit, and only occasionally sitting at Nav Station (exception for listening to VHF weather forecasts)

--- Use of chartplotter (or laptop, or paper charts) below decks, you'll likely be sitting at Nav Station...
--- Like the below decks chart plotter, your below decks AIS display will also usually be used sitting down, but..
But, you will need to be able to see these targets quickly/easily, so being able to see them while standing (and even better, in the cockpit as well) is important.

--- Depth and Wind, and speed (and basic current weather) is usually used when sitting at Nav Station...
--- Genset, Shore power, Air Cond, watermaker controls, etc. are usually used at anchor or at dock, and usually done while standing...
--- Consumer electronics / stereo, etc...in addition to being non-critical, are usually touched/adjusted underway while standing...
--- Some things like battery system monitoring, solar monitors, inverter controls, etc. can be placed anywhere you desire....but use the above systems as priorities and then design-in these others where space permits and where you desire...


As, you can see....even though it is done all the time (usually due to manufacture's / outfitters ignorance or laziness) placing a VHF radio down low at your Nav Station is probably going to be a waste of valuable space....you can install it higher up, where it will usually be easier to use, and allow the lower spaces to be used by devices that are better used / usually used sitting down...(and of course, you do have a cockpit mic for your VHF...yes?)



Again, these are just examples....and your use / your application may be different, but please take the time to really think about all of this, before spending the $$$ and before hacking up Nav Station panels...
{I myself, used some cardboard and a couple sharpies, while sitting at my original Nav Station, to make some decisions on where/how to install everything....it will require some thought, but it WILL pay off big time....when anyone can walk on-board your boat, and within a minute or two be able to figure things out, you'll be confident that when in heavy weather (or even emergencies) you'll find things right where you need them to be, without worry...}



Also if you look at my Nav Station / chart table, you can see that I have the entire chart table available for charting, nothing obstructs that....even my drink / cup holder is mounted so that it allows a few inches of space between it and chart table...



Of course, there is a lot more....but thought hitting these first few rules, should give you some good info that will help....too much info might just clog the brain, ya' know...

Okay, okay...enough prefacing....onto some specifics....

FYI: Be aware that you will need proper radio licenses in order to use/operate even a VHF radio in international waters or territorial waters of other nations.....as well as in order to have an MMSI # for your DSC Radios, and for your AIS transponder.....for all of these (and any MF/HF-DSC-SSB radio i.e "SSB", radar, EPIRB, etc.) your boat will need an FCC-issued maritime mobile ship's station license (costs ~ $220, every 10 years), and you will need a restricted radio operators license (costs about ~ $55, but good for life)....there are no exams, and it will usually take you about 15 minutes on-line to process everything, and expect licenses in a couple weeks...



See direct answers / comments here in red...

Originally Posted by Madehn

It is time for new electronics suite on the boat- I need the following:
Radar, Chartplotter, AIS(send and receive), depth, wind. My cruising will be mostly in the Caribbean- boat is a 51 foot sailboat with large battery bank, wind and solar.

Further FYI: Radar can be nice if you need to avoid things / find things, in poor visibility and/or some unlit things at night (such as old oil rig pipes, in Gulf of Mexico, etc.)....but, for the most part, except for occasionally using it to find the easier path thru some thunderstorm cells, in the Caribbean radar isn't needed much...not saying that you shouldn't have radar, just that other criteria should be a larger contributing factor in your choice.



1) I want things to be robust and simple to use.
Design your new electronics system as a "system" (even if you desire to not have anything "integrated")....and don't just buy things piece-meal, but design a system that will work well....also, buying name brand gear and models that are already well-established (not the leading-edge / newest / most advanced whiz-bang stuff), goes a LONG way to making sure things will be robust / reliable / easy-to-use...

In general, using all the same brand (and vintage) of equipment allows things to be more easily installed/wired, and usually allows everything to work well together....Fyi, "Icom" and "Vesper" work well with just about every other manufacturer, and btw, that's because they have to, 'cuz they don't make depth sounders, radars, MFD's, wind instruments, autopilots, etc....so, as long as the "radio" and "AIS" brands you choose work well with everything else, they do NOT need to be the same brand as all your other electronics...

{of course, remember the first rule....it is the wiring / installation / programming / commissioning of each device AND the entire system, that "makes" or "breaks" the functionality / optimal use AND reliability of your marine electronics system...}



2) Autopilots are both stand alone units which do not need to be integrated into the chartplotters.
Of course, there is no need to "integrate" your autopilot(s) into anything at all! And, like you, I also prefer/recommend not integrating an autopilot!

But, remember that some installs use the autopilot heading sensor for the vessel's heading data going to a chartplotter....this, in my opinion, is a mistake, as most chartplotters these days are MFD's and are also used for radar...and one of the great functions of radar is MARPA....and MARPA needs a "fast heading sensor" to work....most autopilot heading sensors (simple flux-gate compasses) do not update / output heading info fast enough for MARPA (sure, they're fine for the autopilot, especially since most modern autopilots have a rate-gyros, they don't need fast heading data...but MARPA does)....
So...

So, while there is no need to integrate your autopilot to your chartplotter, you will need some heading data into your chartplotter....so, either budget in a fast-heading-sensor (what I highly recommend) to be used by your chartplotter/MFD/radar....or just connect your autopilot's heading data (NMEA, SeaTalk, etc.??) to your chartplotter...(fyi, an odd peculiarity of the original SeaTalk and NMEA0183 from some older Raymarine autopilots = they outputted regular heading data on SeaTalk, but "fast heading data" only on NMEA0183....I found this out, after scratching my head for a couple hours, when doing my own upgrade years back....oh, Raymarine confirmed this in a quick phone call, but didn't put this info in their product manuals....although now with SeaTalkNG and NMEA2000, this is all moot, but I hope you see my point: sometimes you need to really understand this stuff in order to get optimal results, and unfortunately most in the marine electronics business do not actually know this stuff very well...



3) I would like the vhf to be able to utilize the dsc calling data.

All marine fixed-mount marine VHF radios sold in US in past 15+ years are VHF-DSC-FM and all in past decade are fully "GMDSS Class D" VHF-DSC-FM radios....so, as long as you supply GPS position data to the radio (AND you have an FCC-issued MMSI # inputted into the radio), you will be able to fully use the DSC functions!

And, fyi, I highly recommend a separate / dedicated GPS unit to provide GPS data for your DSC radios....(or you can equip with VHF-DSC and/or MF/HF-DSC-SSB radios that have GPS built-in)...Icom and Standard Horizon both make VHF-DSC radios that have built-in GPS...(and while I know that S/H has been quite popular in the past couple years, this is because they had features that some wanted at a very low price point, versus Icom who came in a year later at a higher price point....and while many will just say "buy standard horizon", I'm an outlier here, 'cuz I still say "stick with Icom", especially if saving a couple hundred of dollars isn't the goal! )

But, please remember to replace all your VHF antenna coax and connectors, and even replace the old antenna....this is all pretty cheap, and will give you the best performance / reliability!!

VHF and AIS Radiowave Propagation and VHF and AIS Radio Range
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ge-149499.html


VHF-DSC Communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF



4) I would also like to be able to turn the AIS off.
I have AIS transponder on a separate circuit, you can just wire it this way if you desire, so no worries there....
But, fyi, as far as I know, all Class B AIS transponders have a "silent mode", which switches off their transmission functions, but still allows it to receive AIS transmissions of other boats....AND this "silent mode" seems to be forgotten by way too many pleasure boaters out there, 'cuz if you sail along a coast or near an anchorage, you can see that almost all of the Class B AIS signals you see are boats with a SOG of less than 0.1kts (meaning they are anchored/moored/docked) and the idiot captains leave their friggin' AIS's transmitting!!! Argh!


So, good-on-you for wanting to shut the darn thing off!

BTW, please remember my info above, reminding you that you will need an FCC-issued maritime mobile ship's license (which will have your MMSI #) in order to use an AIS transponder.



5) I don't want to rely on a laptop or IPADS -

Good on you!

Raymarine or Garmin are going to be the ones to look at for your chartplotter/MFD...although having some paper charts (especially in Bahamas) and a good depth sounder are going to be much more important than your chartplotter...

Furuno just isn't quite up to the modern state of the art, in consumer marine electronics these days, nor are they the easiest products for many layperson sailors to use....please know they make good stuff, but still think it's going to be Raymarine or Garmin....(my personal preference is Raymarine, but yours might be different)



6) cost is not terribly important - reliability and simplicity is. --
If reliability and simplicity are really your primary criteria, please go back up and reread Rule #1.!!

'Cuz, in my 50 years of using/working on electronics (and 35+ years in the electronics/communications industry), this Rule #1 is so often overlooked / misunderstood, that if I had a $100 for every time I saw a worthless/hodge-podge so-called "professional" installation of marine electronics, I'd be sailing a new Hinckley rather than my Catalina!!

Please, no matter what answers you get here, no matter what electronics you end up choosing, please remember Rule #1....it will save you a lot of heartache (and save you some $$$$, as well!)

But, just so you know I'm not ducking the question, please see my comments/recommendations above, in my "Preface C", as well as answers to your #'s 1 thru 5...'cuz I think I hit the high notes there?



I have been offered my choice of Garmin equipment for 40% off their retail by a friend of a friend who works for them. I had Garmin in my aircraft and loved it but have heard mixed things about their marine stuff.
40% off MSRP or 40% off "street price"?
Big difference between these two....as these days even brick & mortar retail prices are 25% to 30% off MSRP....and discount / online retailers are already about 30% - 40% off MSRP....

So, before you make a decision, please get a quote or two....and of course remember what you, yourself, wrote above: "cost is not terribly important".

And remember, Garmin aviation products and their reliability (and support) are great....but this doesn't exactly correlate to their consumer marine products...



I would appreciate hearing specific suggestions.

Exact specific suggestions can be tough to make....mainly because (except for the few products that stand out as tops in their niche) there is a great deal of personal preference involved! Also, without knowing exactly where/how you'll be cruising, nor your lifestyle, etc., it's tough to know what might be best for you, assuming there actually is a "best" (probably not)

But, if you want my personal thoughts....I've posted them before, and openly say:

Radios: Icom

AIS: Vesper

Chartplotter/MFD/radar: Raymarine (choose the biggest screen that you can afford and that fits in your cockpit...'cuz that is where you're going to need it the most....and choose a smaller screen for your Nav Station unit, 'cuz you do not need a big screen down there) Be sure to have main GPS receiver wired to provide GPS data to all parts of your system, AND powered separately (NOT thru the chartplotter), as this way you'll always have GPS position data, even if chartplotter(s) are off or have failed. Include a "fast heading sensor", either exclusive to chartplotters/MFD (preferred) or shared to your autopilot...this depends on exactly which models you choose...and how you design and wire-up the system.


Autopilot: Raymarine (sized for your boat), and make sure that you have new wire (or very good older wire) for the autopilot drive!

Basic sailing instruments and cockpit instruments (Depth, Speed/temp, Wind): Raymarine (networked together, and also getting GPS data from main GPS)

Separate / Dedicated GPS (if your VHF-DSC-FM and MF/HF-DSC-SSB Radios do not have built-in GPS): Garmin...such as older GPS-76Gsc, etc...or similar handheld Garmin, that can be permanently-mounted, and wired to ship's 12vdc, and output NMEA0183 GPS position data to your radios.



Most popular brands are available in my area (Kemah Tx) but talking to dealers etc has not given me a clear picture of what is the right choice.

This doesn't surprise me....unfortunately most marine electronics dealers have no clue how most of this stuff works (actually, I'd say almost none!)....and darn few installers/commissioning techs, have more than a cursory understanding....

I don't want to come off like a "know-it-all", 'cuz I'm not....but (in addition to majoring in physics, decades ago), I've been doing this (electronics / communications, marine and otherwise) for "fun" now for 50 years, and non-marine electronics/communications professionally now for 37 years!! And, somewhere in there I've also managed to sail offshore a lot! Making multiple Atlantic crossings (first one 40 years ago, well before GPS, sat com, etc...and the last few on my current boat)....and a few seasons in the Med....as well as many, many passages to/from Carib and US, with many, many seasons in Bahamas and further down-island...

Now, it was just 13 years ago, that I found out you could buy boneless/skinless chicken breasts in the store, fresh and frozen.....but, I've know how radiowaves travel, how radar works, how depth sounders work, etc. etc. etc, since the mid/late 1960's....and continue to make a living in high-tech communications/electronics today, in 2020....so, I'm not the guy to ask about "general life stuff", but when it comes to electronics / electronic hardware, especially communications gear, I'm darn good! Oh, fyi, I'm not a software guy...of course, I know how to use software, but I'm not a coder, nor do I de-bug software....just saying, I'm a hardware guy...




I like electronics, but I like them as tools to make things simpler
This is a good philosophy for on-board marine electronics, especially for offshore sailing!

not to dig into to learn every possible in and out to tweak etc.

No worries, that what electronic nerds like me live for!


OK have at it and let me know your thought
I hope all the above shows at least some of my thoughts?
See below for more!

BTW, in regard to specific marine electronics devices, here are some of my thoughts about what is "necessary" and what is "nice to have"....have a look at a thread here...
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post1766411


And, here are some highlights:

....With the understanding that you may literally need NO electronics at all, as many have sailed for decades (both coastal and around the world) without even electricity on-board let alone radios/electronics....
A good steering compass, a watch, and even some old-outdated charts will get you around the world!!!

So, with that caveat behind us....here are some thoughts / recommendations for the necessities ("must haves"), for most sailors/cruisers...in order of importance/preference (which would vary, depending on exactly where/how you're planning on sailing/cruising):

1) Marine VHF-DSC-FM, with a good masthead antenna, fed w/ low-loss cable (properly weather-proofed)...
(and a spare antenna and short length of cable w/ pre-assembled connectors...)
VHF-DSC Communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...J6QugtO2epizxF

VHF and AIS Radiowave Propagation and VHF and AIS Radio Range
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ge-149499.html



2) Depth-sounder, accurate and calibrated....
(along with a lead-line)


3) Autopilot or "self-steering"....an almost absolute "must have" for long-range cruising, ocean crossings, etc....but, for coastal cruising this can be way down on the "want" list....


4) GPS....depending on the model, usually multiple GPS's....
(and spare batteries for the handheld GPS's...)


5) EPIRB, properly registered (updated every 2 years) and tested annually...
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ds-146617.html


6) Handheld VHF-DSC-FM radio, w/ spare battery...


And, that's pretty much it for the "must haves"....the list above will get you around the world safely....all other electronics are in the "nice to have" / "want" category...
(of course we are assuming that you'll have the boat equipped with all the required nav lights, etc. so that is not really part of this "electronics" discussion...)



And, in the "nice to have" / "want" category:

7) Weather info / forecast access equipment...

WeFax, Voice, NAVTEX, and SafetyNet reception equipment, such as HF radio / Marine SSB, NAVTEX rec, INMARSAT-C, etc...

Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...zdjTJjHlChruyY

Offshore / Hi-Seas Weather data / forecasts
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ea-103555.html

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...gs-130640.html

[I'd also include a good ext. Wi-Fi set-up, and/or an ext cellular/3g/4g/LTE antenna set-up, here in this category....as these can be very useful for accessing weather info/forecasts when in port, anchored, and/or close-to shore sailing coastally...as well as allow easy / cheap e-mail and phone connectivity to the outside world when in port or in near coastal waters...]



8) Collision avoidance electronics, such as AIS and Radar...
a) Class B AIS is getting inexpensive enough and will soon become commonplace....so, although it's not a "must have", having a Class B AIS transponder is good idea...

b) Radar is useful in some places where visibility is compromised or there are many vessels/obstructions to navigate around, and darn near a necessity in some places (i.e. FOG)....but in other places (Caribbean, etc.) is never needed...
So, depending on "where"/"how" you sail, radar can be near the top of the "want" list, or on the "never need it" list...



9) Long range radio communications equipment....such as Marine SSB (HF-DSC-SSB radio)...
For most offshore sailors / cruisers in remote locales, this is also part of their "weather access equipment" (see #7 above)....so, you may already have this covered above...
But, once you are out of cellular/mobile phone range (a few miles offshore at best), this is your only link to the outside world....for weather, communications, telephone connections, emergencies/distress calling, contacting other boats, e-mails, etc....without this, you're on-your-own...

Maritime HF communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZDo_Jk3NB_Bt1y


HF-DSC Communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ga2zYuPozhUXZX


Offshore Weather
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2mPZAx2vWzdjTJjHlChruyY


Icom M-802 Instruction videos
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...rC-8QKVyMb4tVr


Offshore Sailing
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...KgTCj15iyl6qoY


VHF-DSC Communications
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnN6ygtZ3h2m-IejYg7J6QugtO2epizxF


GMDSS, communications, etc...
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...gs-130640.html


Marine SSB Stuff (how-to better use / proeprly-install SSB, & troubleshoot RFI, etc.)
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tc-133496.html


HF-SSB Radio, Proper Installation Tips/Techniques, etc.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...tc-198305.html


10) Second EPIRB, and/or PLB's...


11) Chartplotter and electronic charts (but this is typically incorporated into a "radar" unit, and is covered in item #8 above...)


12) Some type of "sailing instruments", wind and boat speed instruments....
(although having a "boat speed" sensor can be very important to understand how the current is effecting you...the set/drift....and I find it VERY helpful....the unfortunate fact is, that most new sailors/cruisers don't use this info much...)


13) Some type of "sat comm" gear....
Although, for some serious offshore sailors and round-the-world types, an INMARSAT-C terminal (as described above in the weather access equipment category, #6 above), will have already been fitted from the list above....there are many less serious cruisers who may find a handheld sat phone (especially one with a "docking station" and ext ant.), such as an Iridium phone to be a nice thing to have....as it can provide a second way to make phone calls / get e-mails when at sea, as well as serve as a back-up means of accessing weather info/forecasts....


14) Entertainment electronics....such as a nice stereo (w/ cockpit speakers mounted WELL AWAY from any compasses!), TV, DVD Player, digital cameras, etc...


[Please take note that items, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14....can be very easily rearranged, depending on both personal tastes and where/how you'll be sailing/cruising... ]


Please understand that ALL of this stuff needs electricity to work!!!
And, the more "electronics" you have, the more "electricity" you'll need!!
Please consider this as more "sage electronics advice"....you cannot design an electronics system without also considering your electrical system, power consumption, and generating/storage capabilities!!!

Madehn, I do hope this helps, without overwhelming you?
(and, sorry if this seems like a lot to take in....but, I did tell ya' up top that it was gonna' be long...LOL)

BTW, if you read all the above, and watch the videos....and you understand even just 1/4 of it....you'll still know/understand more than most of the guys selling and installing all of this... LOL

Fair winds.

John




Here is Dave's (s/v Auspicious) recent Webinar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSqKxWjORn4

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by GreenWave

If you are doing a complete replacement I think it makes sense to try and stay within one electronics family. I will second Vesper for AIS- very good and has a great app for management. My VHF and AIS is on the same panel breaker so I cannot turn off AIS separately. I am sure with the right equipment and panel config it can be done.

Maybe I’m silly, but doesn’t the Vesper unit have an on/off button?

[slug]

Be alert to energy usage

The above pictured nav station will need a nuclear power plant to power it and cooling fans to dissipate the heat generated by all those electronics

Go simple

Go stand alone systems

Avoid integrated systems

[ka4wja]

Slug,
If you're referring to my boat / my Nav Station??
And, my recommendations above?
If so, I think you may not have actually read what I wrote??

Originally Posted by slug

Be alert to energy usage

The above pictured nav station will need a nuclear power plant to power it and cooling fans to dissipate the heat generated by all those electronics

Go simple

Go stand alone systems

Avoid integrated systems

Slug,
1) It's always nice to get responses to posts that have taken a great deal of time / effort to put together...

And, I was trying to assume that your comment on what it takes to power my Nav Station / my whole boat, is just a humorous comment / compliment?? But, it reads differently....AND..

And, I am surprised by a few big things:

a) One, that it appears you didn't actually read it in detail, as you would've seen the multiple comments / recommendations I quite powerfully made, to take into account all the electrical power that some modern marine electronics use, and design-in / plan-for enough solar to power all of your systems....and well as my recommendations for simple / low-power-consumption devices...(dedicated GPS w/o chartplotter, Vesper AIS, mono-chrome LCD cockpit instruments, basic depth sounder, etc. etc...)



b) Secondly, that you didn't actually look closely at the photos to see the low-power-consumption devices (dedicated GPS w/o chartplotter, Vesper AIS, second low-power GPS for DSC radios, mono-chrome LCD cockpit instruments, basic depth sounder, Spectra Watermaker, etc. etc.), and the 520 watts of unshaded-solar w/MPPT controllers....nor does it appear that you read much of the reference material / linked material, where low-power-consumption devices (and adequate solar) are recommended, as well as links to my energy system...


If you had done the above, you'd have seen that when underway or at anchor, my 520 watts of solar (w/ Blue Sky MPPT controllers), keeps me energy independent....as long as the sun shines every 3 - 4 days, or we have at least broken-clouds/party-cloudy days....I power all on-board (except air cond and microwave, neither used very often, but run off a 6KW genset if needed) with 12vdc (currently 900 AH house bank)....of course I also have a towed-water-generator for cloudy days / nights on long offshore passages....



Have some looks here....but please read the text, as well as look at the pics, as you'll see I get between 200 - 260 A/H's per day from these panels....in summertime and/or in low-latitudes, this is an average of about 240 A/H's per day, and as little as 200 A/H's per day in wintertime in mid-latitudes....although these maximum numbers are not usually seen when at anchor in sunny skies, because there isn't enough power used at anchor to actually use all that the solar array can produce...


Solar Panels



Towed-Water-Generator


Frig/Freezer




c) Third, perhaps you didn't read what I wrote (and others have written as well)??

If you do actually read what is here for you, you'll see that you can have a simple system / simple devices, and connect them together so you can get various pieces of data / info on different devices, without any of these "connections" being necessary to operate any of these devices at all!!

Now, some will call this "integration", some will just call it "data sharing", and some will just simply call it what it is "connecting stuff"....

Seriously though, please read what is right here for you....and you'll see you can have a simple system / simple devices, with much versatility and ease-of-use!! Just have a look and you'll see...





2) To be clear, but brief....I'm going to be generous here, showing higher consumption than I personally use...(but perhaps more accurately represents the "typical / normal" mid-sized cruising boat?)


a) In tropical climes (such as summertime Florida, Bahamas, Caribbean...and sometimes even summertime Med), typically the single largest power consumer on-board most cruising boats is their refrigeration / freezer...and this is the case for me, where my frig and freezer consume 60 - 80 A/H's per day (sometimes as much as 90 A/H's per day, keeping ice cream frozen in July), depending on ambient temps and how full the boxes are...and this is with 0* to +5*F freezer temps, and 34* to 38*F frig temps.....which are attained all-year-long...(fyi, colder is attainable, but with higher power consumption and/or the use of countertop insulation boards)

Let's use ~ 70 to 75 A/H's per day, for sake of this discussion....but probably less, in almost all circumstances...



b) And, typically the second largest power consumer (while underway) is the autopilot (fyi, sail trim and helm balance is important here)...and again this is the case for me, where I see about 45 - 75 A/H's per day when sailing offshore, typically 45 - 60 A/H's per day, but in heavy following seas it can be as high as 75 A/H's per day....

Let's just use a round number of ~ 60 A/H's per day....



c) Although large screens (chartplotters/radar) are also relatively high power consumers, these are not typically run all that often (at least not by me!) and when running a large screen chartplotter and/or radar, many sailors (at least me, and many sailors I know) are typically underway approaching a coastline (where engine power might be used more often, as fuel is typically available nearby) and/or under engine power (such as if in fog)....but, if you take an approx 1.5 to 1.75 amps for a full-sunlight-visible 8" chartplotter, and 2 to 2.5 amps for a larger 12" to 14" full-sunlight-visible chartplotter, and another 1 amp for a radar scanner....equaling about 5 amps overall....and maybe an hour or two of use per day, means 5 to 10 A/H's per day (but, maybe no consumption at all, except for when using engine?)

So, just to say we will use these some, let's assume about 5 to 10 A/H's per day...and sailing the Caribbean as the original poster will be doing, he might not use them at all....(but, if you were in bad weather, along a coast, looking for T-storms, needed radar, etc, and you ran one of these 24/7, figure about 40 - 50 a/h per day, including radar...)



d) 24/7 receiving of VHF-DSC-FM = ~ 25 A/H's per day


24/7 GPS unit with basic display/navigator = ~ 1.5 A/H's per day

24/7 secondary GPS (for DSC radios) = ~ 1 A/H per day


24/7 AIS transponder (with its own GPS) and Watchmate display = ~ 10 to 11 A/H's per day

24/7 Depth sounder, Speed Log, and Wind transducer (all with basic displays) = ~ 5 to 8 A/H's per day


12 hrs use of LED Nav Lights = ~ 1.5 A/H's per day

1 to 2 hrs of SSB radio use per day = ~ 2 to 6 A/H's per day

1 to 2 hours of WeFax reception per day = ~ 2 to 4 A/H's per day


This section adds up to 48 to 58 A/H's per day....so, let's just round-it-off to an even ~ 50 A/H's per day...




e) Cabin lights (LED's), Cabin Fans (Hella Turbo), domestic water pressure pump, stereo, etc....except for some cabin fans, none are run 24/7...and, while exact consumption of all of these varies depending on a particular sailor's lifestyle, etc....we can assume an average of about 5 to 10 A/H's per day, from all of these combined....

Let's just say ~ 5 A/H's per day...



f) Spectra watermaker....about 8amps to make 7.2 to 7.5 gals...run for 4 hours or so, every 3 to 5 days, which equates to approx. 6 to 10 A/H's per day, on average...

Let's just say ~ 10 A/H's per day...


If you add up all of these numbers, you get ~ 200 to 210 A/H's per day, when underway and offshore...and about 1/2 of this (50% to 60%), approx ~ 120 - 130 A/H's per day, when at anchor, where no autopilot, chartplotter/radar, AIS, etc. is needed, nor is 24/7 use of VHF, etc....but more use / more consumption from lights, fans, stereo, watermaker, radio, etc...



An actual real rule-of-thumb, of solar arrays charging 12vdc battery banks, is:
In low to mid latitudes (areas with decent sun angles), or high latitudes in summertime (where there are longer days of sun), as long as your solar array isn't shaded (and has adequate airflow around panels, especially under the panels), and you use MPPT controllers, you can get 40% or so of your panels' wattage in actual A/H's per day (at 14vdc)...and if sun angles are good (and batteries can accept the charge current), you can approach 50%...BUT...

But, shade is the enemy here....even small amounts of shade will reduce your array output....now, small intermittent "shadows" (like from a rigging wire) are typically inconsequential, but "shade" is very bad...

{Fyi, although I was playing with solar in the 1970's, I did my first commercial / off-grid solar array install in 1984....and played with solar on-board some boats around that time as well....and in the early 1990's did some solar installs on boats....so, in addition to my experience with electronics, I've been dealing with solar for decades.... }


Further, if you have the budget, nothing beats Sunpower panels....but Kyocera, Sanyo, Sharp, etc. are pretty good....the made-in-China / highly-marketed / discount panels are not...and we won't even start discussing the flexible panels....



Slug, et al, I do hope this helps clear up the confusion....
As, yes, I do have a rather extensive suite of on-board marine electronics and communications gear (not seen in most of those pics, are my Bullet wi-fi system, Iridium 9555 phone, back-up VHF-DSC-FM, back-up MF/HF-DSC-SSB, multiple handheld VHF's, portable SW rec,, additional handheld GPS's, etc. etc....none of which use any electrical power, 'cuz they are stowed securely unless needed), but everything is all run easy-peasy off 12vdc house batteries charged by alternative energy (mostly solar), and has worked well for me for years and many 1000's of miles of cruising, including a few Atlantic crossings, etc...



Fair winds.


John

[Maldwin]

I am interested in the Raymarine recommendation above, because I am thinking of replacing my Furuno TZTouch system with an Raymarine Axiom systen. I want to add FLIR, which seems to integrate much better with the Raymarine system where it offers color, and augmented reality. These may be gimmicks, but I think they may be very useful at night.
Best,
Maldwin

[nortonscove]

I'd consider this advice less than that about what boat one should buy. A friend of mine likes tinkering with his electronic toys more than sailing. I like sailing and try to avoid the vortex that is a suite of electronics and aim for simple and effective.

I usually and should have scrolled past this topic as in the past.