Have to haves and wants

[ka4wja]

Brookie,
It seems the actual answers to your questions are getting ignored by "the boat choice" issue (which is being discussed elsewhere, in detail)...

You're drifting quite a ways off from electronics, and maybe you and those commenting on "the boat choice", can post further in those threads, where the discussion is quite detailed??

Here, I've tried to steer clear of "the boat choice" issue and just answer the questions at hand: "what are the 'must haves' vs. the 'wants', in marine electronics"....


....So....


For > 40 years I have studied....and taught....and professionally specialized in antennas, antenna system design / construction, etc...

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

Lol! I am just trying to visualize how to get all the antennas, solar panels and wind generator on the back of a double ender?

So, I think I can help 'ya here...

[Your real issue with stern clutter on a double-ender is going to be windvane self-steering....and having a lot of solar....
The antennas are small and unassuming!!!]

First off, most have found wind gens to be less useful than they thought....and the fact that they typically shade the solar panels too much, makes having a wind gen a mistake, for most.....not to mention that their outputs are small (to non-existant) when in most anchorages and on down-wind runs...
Solar is 100% reliable, and completely silent...
And, nowadays solar is cheaper!!
So, do NOT worry about a wind gen at this point...


Secondly, fitting solar on a double-ender can be more difficult than on modern wide-stern boat....but it IS doable!!

Although, I have a more modern, wide stern boat, have a look at what I did years ago, and has worked well for me for > 8 years and > 12,000 miles offshore (incl. two Atlantic crossings, multiple full-gales, 3 days thru a tropical storm, etc.)
Solar Panels
4711201

Here's a pic with my GPS antenna in the foreground, next to the solar panels...
4700404

And, here are two pics, showing the GPS ant, second VHF ant (which would look the same as a HF-DSC rec ant), and WiFi ant...
AIS Transponder
AIS Transponder



But, let's handle this in a non-technical / layperson manner...
Start at the top and move down, and then forward to aft...

1) At the masthead:
a) You'll have your primary VHF antenna (which will most probably also be used as your AIS transponder antenna, by using the Vesper SP-160 at the Nav Station)
This is just a simple, slim, 3' long SS whip, that will be almost invisible from the deck...
b) LED "Tri-Color" Nav Light / Anchor Light combo...a small tennis-ball / hockey-puck sized light..
c) Possibly a windex / wind transducer...a small arrow and cups...
d) Possibly a small round (8" dia) white plastic TV antenna...


2) Although rare....Possibly on a spreader:
a) If you really want a second, high-mounted, VHF antenna...(such as for your AIS transponder, should you want to not use the Vesper SP-160...)
A small, slim, 3' long VHF antenna...

b) Possibly a small, thin, cellular antenna...


3) The backstay wire will be insulated, so that it is used as your primary HF (SSB) antenna....
Except for the insulators, nobody can tell it's an antenna, 'cause it's just your backstay...


4) On the stern, perhaps on a pole or just on the rail:
a) GPS antenna (a small mushroom looking thing)

b) Wi-Fi / cellular antenna (a 2' tall, slim, white fiberglass antenna, etc.)

c) HF-DSC whip antenna....(it's a 4' long SS whip, looks like a VHF antenna...)

d) Should you desire some sort of sat comm, such as INMARSAT-C or Iridium, you'll have a small, 6" high, white antenna (a bit bigger than the GPS "mushroom", sort looks like a miniature-sized half of a football...)


And, that's it, for antennas....
For most:
1 VHF at the masthead..
1 TV "saucer" at the masthead, should you want a TV antenna.

1 GPS mushroom at the stern...
1 HF-DSC whip at the stern...
1 Wi-Fi / Cellular antenna at the stern...

And, if you wish some sat comm, a sat comm antenna on the stern as well...



Your real issue with stern clutter on a double-ender is going to be windvane self-steering....and having a lot of solar....
The antennas are small and unassuming!!!


BTW, in the "electronics vein", two comments on the "boat A" vs. "boat B" issue....
a) A complete electronics fit-out will NOT cost you a $100K!!! (a LOT less!!)
b) And trying to decide on which boat, based on their "standard electronics" or lack-thereof, especially when the boats are so VASTLY DIFFERENT, is more than odd....it is a BIG mistake...(but that has already been mentioned...



I hope this helps...

Fair winds...

John

[brookiesailor]

Thanks John,
For bringing this back to topic. My choice of boat In the end will be a very personal decision!

I have learned a lot from this thread regarding the needs and wants of sailors on the electronics from and the needs of power to run them. The spread sheet will help me lay out the costs and help me narrow my search.

The Dubai boat show is going on across the street. I went the other day but was turned off by the opulence. I may go back and track down the electronics guys. Even if I decide against this boat I will have learned a great deal!


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[ka4wja]

Brookie,
You're welcome!

But, please do read this posting....
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1766411

And, if you have a bit of faith/trust, you'll believe that "sage electronics advice", and see what is truly important in regards to marine electronics...
(and, then you may wish to not bother to look for the "electronics guys" at the boat show, 'cause most of the good ones, are not there in fancy dress shorts / Ralph Loren polos, but rather are at home working or out sailing!!)


Fair winds and much luck to 'ya!!

John

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

I have learned a lot from this thread regarding the needs and wants of sailors on the electronics from and the needs of power to run them. The spread sheet will help me lay out the costs and help me narrow my search.

The Dubai boat show is going on across the street. I went the other day but was turned off by the opulence. I may go back and track down the electronics guys.

I've seen a few people throw out the $100K number for electronics...

Haven't shopped recently, and there are probably a few things that would be sailboat-specific, and/or maybe long-distance-cruising-specific (SB radio?)...

But our nav refit in 2009 was more like in the neighborhood of slightly under $25K, including installation (and labor). That was for a new GPS, chartplotter, AIS, autopilot, 2 VHF radios, two depth sounders (one simple tri-data, the other tri-data fishfinder)-- and it was all top-o'-the-line latest-and-greatest stuff at the time.

We already had radar onboard though, so that would have upped our total maybe another $5K at the time.

-Chris

[a64pilot]

I threw out the 100K number under the assumption that the boat would be not equipped with things like a watermaker, airconditioners, a generator, Solar, Windlass etc.
While none of those things are truly "electronics" they are electric and therefore usually thought to go together, and on a boat of that size and class, pretty much considered required equipment.
Then I took the assumption that all of it would be professionally installed, add those together and I think your at 100K pretty easily and honestly with SatCom, and home entertainment systems and Sat TV, probably blow through 100K pretty easy.
Assuming those things are wanted too.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I threw out the 100K number under the assumption that the boat would be not equipped with things like a watermaker, airconditioners, a generator, Solar, Windlass etc.
While none of those things are truly "electronics" they are electric and therefore usually thought to go together, and on a boat of that size and class, pretty much considered required equipment.

Ah. Fair enough. I don't put any of those in the same class, but I see how you got there from here.

-Chris

[warrior 90]

Hi there

Have a look at an Amel 54 used and find out how much boat /value You can buy for the money.
They are standard full equip and every little thing (electronics) You might want as extra will be no big deal. They come very much complete. It´s a lot cheaper and better if certain equipment is installed by the builder than installed later on. They buy lots for the complete production run
They built cruising boats only and that for decades.
There main customers are short handed cruising couples
Very comfortable to sail, extremly safe, exceptional good quality and also known to hold value quiet well....No custom designs, easy spare parts and known to have the best customer service ever......do some research Here is the prasentation of the older 54 model

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsFZ...-xzszgJWe1pl8L

This gets better taking in consideration the loss of the Euro against the dollar.
Since they are located in France that might also take care of some of Your geografic problems. I think they could even deliver.

Have a look on this page AMEL yachts brokerage

There is a semi new AMEL 55 year 2014
Have a look at standard and extra equip
Now look at Your must have list and compare to others.
She is factory loaded with lots of goodies.
You might also consider the huge cockpit deck saloon for living space, since You will be spending more time at the Marina or on the hook than sailing and I asume You would want to spent more time there. Have a look at the deck saloon of this amel 54 to get the idear
2008 AMEL 54 - Blue Water ketch Sail Boat For Sale -

For the rest You might be able to work out a deal.

Besides I am shure they should also be in the boat show


Good Luck

[brookiesailor]

A few weeks back I showed hubby a video of the new amel, he said it was too automated, more like driving a ship. I have contacted the company for a price sheet as a back up


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[warrior 90]

Like driving...well that´s way much better than being exposed to the elements because that gets boring very fast
If You don´t have a big crew how You gonna handle the boat with out machines ?...... They are Your crew.....they don´t ask questions...just follow orders and the only thing You have to do is maintain them.
You might want to consider that when Your are on extended cruises. You will be lot´s of time single handed. So anything Your boat can do for You will be more than well come.
But even as a couple on boats of that size sail handling becomes a different story. Put yourself in the situation of 1 week navigating. In general the only thing You want is comfort.
And when You get to Your destination the only thing You want is more comfort.
Think of it as Your new home 24 hours and all the things You have to do while on bord. I think You both should try to actually picture and analize how You would do the everday things on board no matter what boat because this is the way You gonna be living from there on and for a long time.
Picture Yourself in the situation of tacking in every weather situation.
Hopefully You have nice weather most of the time, so the deck saloon will be more like Your living room and in some ocasions You might even not want everybody below deck. You definitly want to enjoy the fresh air and scenic few when ever the climates allows.
Of cause You have to ask Yourself what kind of sailing You will be doing.
The way I can imagen from the distance ocasionally sometimes You might invite somebody but Your guests will never be involved in handling the boat directly unless You wish so.
Both of You will be on watch alone and You might have to do some sail trimming. You can do everything from the cockpit alone and easy where You are save and out of the weather.
These people from Amel have a lot of experience with cruising boats and everything is there for a reason and very well thought for. It´s not to automated. It´s the most advanced way technics and machines can help You today to enjoy sailing for extended period of times and long distances without a big crew.
Don´t get trapped in that action sailing stuff. You don´t have the crew for that. You gonna have more than plenty of action as a couple on such a boat with out it.
Analize the interior lay out like the table for example room for 6 with a fancy plush seating for 4 + 2 on some lousy seats that allways are in the way. On top of that the cook wich in that case will usually be You has to sit on a piece of crap. So don´t go only for the looks. Fancy designers that have never cooked a meal at home most likely will not be the ones who You want to consult. They also don´t clean up the mess.
Look for safety and comfort. Any boat You look at picture Yourself how it would be living on board.....not just sailing for a few hours and forget all that marketing stuff. Think realities.
If You can´t get a deal with Amel for the 55 go for a semi new 54. Look for a 100 % factory maintained boat to be on the safe side. Outfitting will cost You much less as all Amels come pretty much ready to sail away with all the essencial from Factory. The price tag is usually hard to beat because of the way they built boats. That´s why they keep the value compared to others.
There are lot´s of 54s out there that need to find an owner. I think even Amel has quiet a number sitting around so talk to them and see if they are willing to help You with Your problems. This will also be handy for Your geografic situation.

The 54 is an absolutly fantastic boat and here You could get away with around +600 grant.

Again my best wishes to You...if You got the money go for it
Hope You find the right boat FOR YOU

[brookiesailor]

Warrior 90,
It is worth seeing if we can hitch a ride on these boats this summer.


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[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by brookiesailor

Warrior 90,
It is worth seeing if we can hitch a ride on these boats this summer.


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Keep an eye on the dollar exchange rate
Can´t get much better

[barnakiel]

All depends on what the boat is and how you are going to use it.

On an average marina abased, weekend bay sailing boat, I like to have the following set:

- a depth instrument,
- a handheld VHF.

b.

[ingonoka]

Not sure whether my choices will help you, but I am currently outfitting a similar boat, a Hans Christian 41T, and I am also based in Dubai. The boat isn't new, but has never been launched, i.e. it is in the same barebones condition as it came from the boat builder.

For the electronics I chose Raymarine, for the generator a Northern Lights Generator M673L3 / 5kW, for self-steering a Hydrovane, for the sails I go with UK Sales and for a/c I will install a Blue Cool C20M with three blowers.

The boat is in Europe at the moment and I hope to have it in Dubai in June (at The Palm Marina).

The details for the electronics:

e95 9" HybridTouch Multifuncional Display (for the helm)
a75 Multifuncional display with Wifi (for the owners cabin)

Radar Radome RD418HD, 45cm 4kW Digital

3x i70 Display (for the instrument pod on top of the companion way)
Wind Masttop unit
DST8000 Smart Transducer
iTC-5 Instrument Transducer Converter

AIS650-Class B Transponder
Active Aereal splitter

Evolution EV-400 pilot with p70 display
Hydraulic ramdrive, type 2

Ray260 VHF with speaker (this is the modular version that allows connection of three handset throughout the boat)
2x RayMic260 with 10mtr cable incl speaker (EU version)

[autumnbreeze27]

Originally Posted by ingonoka

Not sure whether my choices will help you, but I am currently outfitting a similar boat, a Hans Christian 41T, and I am also based in Dubai. The boat isn't new, but has never been launched, i.e. it is in the same barebones condition as it came from the boat builder.

For the electronics I chose Raymarine, for the generator a Northern Lights Generator M673L3 / 5kW, for self-steering a Hydrovane, for the sails I go with UK Sales and for a/c I will install a Blue Cool C20M with three blowers.

The boat is in Europe at the moment and I hope to have it in Dubai in June (at The Palm Marina).

The details for the electronics:

e95 9" HybridTouch Multifuncional Display (for the helm)
a75 Multifuncional display with Wifi (for the owners cabin)

Radar Radome RD418HD, 45cm 4kW Digital

3x i70 Display (for the instrument pod on top of the companion way)
Wind Masttop unit
DST8000 Smart Transducer
iTC-5 Instrument Transducer Converter

AIS650-Class B Transponder
Active Aereal splitter

Evolution EV-400 pilot with p70 display
Hydraulic ramdrive, type 2

Ray260 VHF with speaker (this is the modular version that allows connection of three handset throughout the boat)
2x RayMic260 with 10mtr cable incl speaker (EU version)

Perfect example of what you might need and how much it might cost, but honestly, if you have to skimp on outfitting the boat because you put all your money in a brand new $700k hull and don't have the budget to completely outfit the boat, you're doing it wrong.

My vote is for the guy who said buy an Amel 52 Super Maramu. There's quite a few in the med to choose from, which would save on delivery expenses, and looks like about half the price of the bare hull.

Reads like a couch sailor post to me.

[J Clark H356]

I haven't read every post, but Ignooki has outfitted his craft similar to what I did in 2003 when I set up my Hunter 356 except he has new electronics instead of the 2003 models still in use on my boat! I added KVH antenna with Dish Network. I too have the Northern Lights 5kw generator and use it whenever we are not at the dock. We have a full complement of Raymarine instruments including Radar and sonar. We have a MarineAire HVAC heat pump that came standard on our boat. I added AIS using the DigitalYacht IAIS that transmits over wifi to my IPad and IPhone. I use Raytech on a pc at the NavStation and it works, but has been somewhat unstable over the years. Today, the Raymarine systems transmit wifi to your tablets and phones.

An autopilot is one of the most valuable pieces of equipment you can purchase. Get the most durable and best one out there. We have 7800 miles on my Raymarine 6000 without a blip. Also I would highly recommend a full enclosure. It will keep you comfortable and dry in conditions that are most uncomfortable in foul weather gear. On a cool day with the sun shining it acts like a greenhouse and and can make a 40 degree windchill day feel like a comfortable 55 to 60.

I use Globalstar with a wifi optimizer and xGate. It works in the areas I go. Iridium is more worldwide coverage. Since we stay in the US, we are mostly close to Verizon so we use a Myfi that will connect 10 items to the Internet. I use it as an onboard router and have a wifi printer.

I use my IPad with InavX and Navionics. Both are good. I use Sailflow as my primary weather predictor. It is excellant.

Get extra fuel so you can sail and run your genset to maintain HVAC in the interior. This will keep your humidity down and make it more comfortable. Buy a good watermaker, I don't have one, but I would buy a CruiseRO if I were getting one. They will work in salt, brackish or fresh water. I have a SafeH20 filtration and UV treatment system on my water tanks and we use on-board water without fear. Safe water is a very high priority.

Make sure you have a wash down system for you anchor. I have one that is at the anchor well and also at the stern. We are mostly in fresh water, but rinsing things off is a continuous process as is washing down the anchor rode and anchor when pulling it up.

Get a good dinghy and a system to retrieve it. I use my spinnaker halyard and have an Avon inflatable with air floor and store it on deck or tow it. I have my KVH mounted on a stern pole and have a hoist that I use for the outboard mounted on my stern rail. I can lower or raise the outboard with one hand. I just bought a Lehr 5hp propane outboard last year. I would highly recommend you do so to avoid problems with ethanol gas. My old 4hp, 4 stroke, very reliable before ethanol gas, just wouldn't run when I needed it despite spending a lot on cleaning carbs and using non-ethanol gas. Our gas has ben ruined by the government nuts.

Get a propane grill. On the hook you will use it a lot. My wife would add a small crock pot. She loads it with roast and vegetables in early afternoon and while cruising in moderate or less conditions you can enjoy the smells and a hot dinner after a long day. Our small one for two just uses 100watts. I just assumed you have a microwave. If not, then get one. It is very useful while cruising. We freeze soups and chili in single serve containers (we use glass with plastic tops) and pop them in the microwave to thaw and warm up. Great, easy to eat meal and fairly quick. I also use the Folgers single tea bag type coffee and 2-1/2 minutes in the microwave and I have a hot cup of coffee. Not Starbucks, but very welcome when needed and pretty good. We also have a propane two burner stove with oven. A must have item.

We have a 2000W inverter/charger and 420 amp hours of Lifeline AGM batteries. We depend on the generator more than we do the batteries, but it is a nice backup. It will power everything but the HVAC.

One thing I can tell you is that no matter how much you think through your needs, you will end up adding things as you get used to the boat and find a need that you have not thought of.

One thing I almost forgot! Get a good remote controlled LED floodlight like a GOLight. Mount in on your bow. It will serve you well seeing buoys at night. I just added one before my cruise last year and it was used a lot. Only pulls 3 watts so I hooked into my running lights circuit. Mine controls wirelessly from wherever I am with a hand controller.

Good luck on your choices and hope you enjoy your boat half as much as we have enjoyed ours. If so, you will be very happy.


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