Ham / SSB Hell !

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

geek fight

No, it's the normal mode of conversation among geeks. When they go to war, it's silent for a long time because they are building their weapons in their laboratories ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by John Drake

Wow, Nick, you are a big fan of the ad hominem attack , good effort.

Wow, latin! I actually looked it up to be sure but it really means that you think I am avoiding to address the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. (Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

But I was really reading that you think the "Russians are the Absolut offenders" and not "another issue". I merely addressed that they are not.

I am really dissapointed, however, that you missed my terrific international pun...

Well, I didn't miss it, but I think I'm not smart enough to understand it ;-) There's the Russians and they love their vodka. Then there's Absolut which is Swedish vodka and no honest Russian will drink that stuff. Then there's me, being Dutch and you being US.... and I just can't put it together. I am probably trying to analyze it too much but hey that's the way geeks think. So I am afraid that you have to explain it to me over a Pirate's Gold one day ;-)

As for "there is no safety in obscurity" nice bit of words, but I think again, if you read closely, my point is that those who care of radio transmissions should be making the point that cleaner, type accepted transceivers. To say that "everyone knows" ignores the original posters questions....it is after all, why this thread is up.

Well, we differ in opinion on that one. My view is that some things are legal and other things are illegal. Talking about (most) illegal things is legal. Everyone has to decide for themselves if they want to do legal things or illegal things. Those who enforce rules should be the ones to enforce rules. My view isn't so complex and I understand your view too... but I just don't agree with it.

You are a fan of trying to support general arguments with anecdotal incidents. Sorry, that simply does not work.

Now that is an ad hominem attack! ;-) The only anecdotal evidence I can detect is my statement that marine SSB fail too, causing interference on the marine bands. I don't see a problem with that statement?!.

As for me and the govt, I am no fan of govt intervention, even though I helped to shape policy at one point.

Yes, I read your profile, you were a navy officer. But if I understand it correctly, your task was to execute foreign policy (navy = instrument to be used by politicians for executing their foreign policy), not shape domestic policy, right?
I once was wearing a black beret when in the Dutch cavalry. We were mostly in miserable cold places in Germany, making sure the Russians stayed put, pointing big cannons at them. I once took a pair of binoculars and scanned their watch towers. I see this guard looking straight back to me with his binoculars and before I know what's happening, he waves, takes a bottle of vodka out his pocket, call's "Ad Fundum" (I can lip-read you see) and empties it in his throat right there. I now have the feeling I should have observed him better as I don't recall if it was Absolut or Gorbachov brand ;-)

In the case of people pooping in the water and over the airwaves...yes, I do think it a good idea to have rules and regulations. There are just too many people who think they know it all and can make their own decisions when in fact they do not and cannot. I think that would be called hubris.

Hubris... wow, Greek! I would indeed call your statement hubris and think that guiding these poor souls and making decisions for them is not your task. But a government can decide to do that. They tend to take action when they considered it is really needed to do something. My biggest problem with that is that their reason for acting is often the wrong one as it's often not because of the actual problem but because of worries about their public relations suffering when waiting too long. In other words: they don't really care what radio you use but they made sure to have a stick to beat you with (the rules) when you cause trouble that might make them look bad. I must stop here because the mods will be all over me if I continue ;-)

Besides, when you or anyone else says that their Kenwood is satisfactory for use on marine bands, that is the same thing the FCC is doing. Stating that this radio can be used but this other may not. What about the ICOM 718 or 706 (whichever ver)? Who makes that call here...you? I think that is called hubris, not to be personal about it.

I wouldn't dare to decide which radio's may be used by others. I don't care, as long as they don't interfere with normal or distress traffic. Radio quality is just one part of that, operator procedures is another big part. And that last part is more complex to get right and totally ignored by the US government (for recreational boaters).

Also, when I say that my Kenwood is satisfactory for use on marine bands, that isn't the same as what the FCC does because I'm just a sailor, not a government institution. All I know is that I am outside the FCC's jurisdiction and you are not. But I'm coming north some day and will be nice and use my 710.

cheers,
Nick.

[John Drake]

Cheers Nick,

No worries, we can agree to disagree about things, there is no problem with that. I do see your point and am glad you can see mine, that is all that matters. Communicating is the key to understanding (of course communicating ON Frequency helps .

I totally forgot that Absolut was not a russian vodka. I really should have known better, having spent some time at 701, the bar in Wash DC that is dedicated to vodka's and caviars. My favorite was Stolichnaya Pertsovka...but after a couple I could only order it as Stoli "Perestroika"!! since I could remember that...ah...those were the days.

Yes, indeed, I was in the canoe club and I suppose was the instrument of foreign policy....what a scary thought THAT is . I did, however, do some time as an advisor in the diplomatic service (perhaps hard to believe... ) and later did help shape policy as a civilian. And indeed, that service was quite enlightening....and one day, when we might be sharing some of those Pirate Gold's, I may tell you how right you are about some things.

So when you are headed this way, do hail on your 710...I will hail you back on my Yaesu 857D (indeed, everyone DOES know about mods.dk and how to use a soldering gun).

And....good choice on your boat....smart to keep it just under 20m...that does avoid a good many more Rules and Regulations!

Best

John

[fairbank56]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes, I am unfamiliar with these rules. But I also see that you aren't quoting them and I can't find them on-line, so if you have access, pls. quote the relevant part!

If your unfamiliar with the rules, you shouldn't be making these misleading statements as if you do know them.

Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Part 2

2.1043 Changes in certificated equipment.

(b) Three classes of permissive changes may be made in certificated
equipment without requiring a new application for and grant of
certification. None of the classes of changes shall result in a change in
identification.

(1) A Class I permissive change includes those modifications in the
equipment which do not degrade the characteristics reported by the
manufacturer and accepted by the Commission when certification
is granted. No filing with the commission is required for a Class I
permissive change.

Eric

[John Drake]

Not to fan any flames, but to lend some information to counter some of the myths that are out there, the following is presented:

Myth: Ham radio's are less expensive than Marine radio's. Not entirely true.

True that a bottom of the line ICOM 718 is $700 retail and the least expensive ICOM Marine SSB, the 700PRO is $1100 retail, however a very good ICOM M700 (non pro) in perfect working order with great transmitter and receiver can be had for $400-425 used.

A used 700PRO goes for about $700-800.

A used 706MKIIG will go for about $700

Next up in price from the 718 would be a new ICOM 706MKIIG, $950 new online (Yaesu's have a similar price structure).

A new, in the box, ICOM M700PRO can be bought online now for $950, no tax and free shipping.

A new Kenwood 480 is $1000.

A new amateur transceiver must have its circuit board modified, in order to transmit out of band. This will void the warrantee on a new radio. The M700PRO can transmit on all ham bands, right out of the box, nothing to do, no new software to be input, no key start up sequence, it can do this as is.

My personal 0.02 advice: For less than the cost of an ICOM M802, you can buy a new 700PRO for reliable marine comms and a used amateur transceiver to play with on ham bands....and have as a back up. I would contend that when you begin to use a HF radio while cruising, you will never want to be without one.


Myth: The FCC does not crack down on illegal transceivers and does not check or enforce the rules. False

See the follow links.

FCC enforcement activities, Amateur service (marine service activities are posted elsewhere):

EB - Amateur Radio Service Enforcement Actions

Recent article in Wired on FCC searches of private properties:

FCC’s Warrantless Household Searches Alarm Experts | Threat Level | Wired.com


Let's not turn this into a politcal thing. The above is to lend other's here, who may or many not be familiar with these issues, some real, factual information.

My best to all.

John

[s/v Jedi]

Eric,

When reading back I find that I indeed made the impression of knowing the rules, sorry for that.

When reading the part of the rules you posted, my first thought was that you are correct. Stubborn as I am, I read it a 2nd time and processed the information which leads me to believe that the class 1 modifications they mention are supposed to be done by the manufacturer, as part of their changes or improvements to the design, before the unit is sold to the public.

Before the days of "type acceptance", installations were tested aboard for approval and sealed. The seal was to prevent the user from making any modifications to the unit.

cheers,
Nick.

[fairbank56]

Originally Posted by John Drake

A new amateur transceiver must have its circuit board modified, in order to transmit out of band. This will void the warrantee on a new radio.

This is actually another myth. It is up to the manufacturer whether they will honor a warranty or not. If they find a failure do to a defect in their equipment, and not due to something you did, they will generally honor the warranty. Iv'e seen Icom as well as Yaesu do warranty repair work even after the warranty period has expired. Taking a cover off, doing some repair work or doing some legal mods does not automatically void the warranty. It's their call.

Eric

[John Drake]

If it is their call, then they can elect not to honor the warranty, if a mod is done.

Their are several explicit warnings in the Yaesu manual that state that any modification that is not "expressly approved by Vertex Standard" could "void the user's authorization to operate this device."

It is their call, thus it is not a myth that the user is taking a chance on having to pay for a repair, depending on how the company wishes to deal with it, at that time.

The ICOM warranty states, "The above stated warranty is for the original owner and the undertaking to repair does not apply [if the radio] in ICOMAmerica's exclusive judgement, has failed due ...alteration,...unauthorized repair or modification."

But, I see your point. If the radio is within the warranty period and the screen goes out, due to a defect in their manufacturing, the company may elect to be good about it and repair it. Or not.

Best

J

[btrayfors]

John,

Thanks for your post re: cost of marine vs. ham radios. I'd been thinking of doing one along similar lines myself, but haven't had the time.

You're quite right: a used marine rig can be had for $400-800 in excellent shape. By the way, I buy these all the time, bench-test them, sell them to clients, install them, etc. I've never come across a "badly adjusted" marine radio, or one which would cause interference. I did find one which was slightly off frequency, but it was easy to bring it back to specs. And, invariably, all marine rigs have very clean signals and when you put them on the air on the ham bands you usually receive an unsolicited report of "excellent audio". Ditto with military rigs and other commercial radios. There really is a difference :-)

I'll agree that some hams may prefer a ham rig due to the greater number of user controls and other operating conveniences. However, with the price of a good used marine rig these days, you can buy a good ham rig AND a good marine rig, install 'em both, be perfectly legal, and all for less than the cost of an 802 !!

Cheers,

Bill

[unbusted67]

I also just found out that my 706 MKII is plugged into a icom AH-4. Does this help me tune to marine bands or something? It's a huge box. What's it all about?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by John Drake

Their are several explicit warnings in the Yaesu manual that state that any modification that is not "expressly approved by Vertex Standard" could "void the user's authorization to operate this device.

See, a statement like that clearly indicates there's more to it. I think that all the trouble in this thread is caused by small differences to the rules in different nations. And as this is an international forum, the differences bubble up. In the EU, every HAM radio sold must have been type accepted by CE which defines minimum standards (we have nothing to do with the FCC). The strange thing is that HAM's can build and even sell their own radio's I think...

For marine radio's the ITU defines the standards and they are enforced by the FCC or equivalent organization in every nation. But these local organizations can add requirements to the international ones. Like ATIS on VHF (that's the data-mode burst you hear after every transmission from these radios... it transmits the callsign) in parts of Europe etc. May be the FCC always allowed user-modifications inside marine radios, I don't know that, but they sure didn't allow that in Holland (every radio was sealed aboard with wire and lead) and I tend to think that even with type acceptance, this didn't change...

If you buy a HAM radio and want your warranty intact with all bands enabled, you can order it opened up from some of the bigger shops. I believe I paid $40 for that with my Kenwood.

Unbusted: no, that's an automatic antenna tuner. Most of these work between 1.6 kHz and 30 Mhz, covering both marine and HAM.

cheers,
Nick.

[GordMay]

In Canada, there are two types of exam’s, leading to "Basic" and "Advanced" Certificates (Amateur Radio Operator Certificate).

The "Basic" exam covers some basic electronics, safety aspects, and operating practices; and you are allowed to use a transmitter that is commercially made, or built from a pre-packaged kit.

The ADVANCED test emphasises the technical aspects of radio theory and practice. With this qualification you are entitled to use maximum power, and a home-made transmitter of your own design. You are also permitted to modify commercially made transmitters and kits, and sponsor club or repeater stations.

Anyone interested in projects involving radio transmitters should be aware of the following federal regulation. You must comply with Industry Canada's requirement RSS-210 - Low Power License-Exempt Radiocommunication Devices (All Frequency Bands). In particular, see Section 5.14: Home-Built Devices, and Section 8: Standards For Low-Power Devices Identified as Category II Equipment.
RSS-210 ➥ Spectrum Management and Telecommunications - RSS-210 - Low-power Licence-exempt Radiocommunication Devices (All Frequency Bands): Category I Equipment

Industry Canada also publishes various information sheets, that are required reading. They are called RICs (Radiocommunication Information Circulars) and RBR (Regulation by Reference). They deal with the regulations governing amateur radio in Canada, and the outline of what must be learned to pass the examination(s).
RICs ➥ Spectrum Management and Telecommunications - Related Official Publications

The (US) ARRL Ham Radio License Manual (2006):
➥ The ARRL Ham Radio License Manual ... - Google Book Search

[s/v Jedi]

Gord,

Don't ask me why or how but we have US HAM licenses. We are General class and there's a basic class below that and an extra class above it. So general looks like equivalent to the Canadian Advanced class. But US basic class isn't allowed on HF bands! Is the Canadian basic class allowed on, let's say 10-40 meter HAM bands?

That would be a big difference ;-)

cheers,
Nick.

[GordMay]

The holder of a Canadian “Basic” Qualification (which requires no Morse Code examination) receives all amateur radio privileges above 30 MHz, except high power transmitter operation.
With the Morse Code Qualification (5 or 12 w.p.m.) added to your Basic Qualification, you receive all privilege,s on all the Amateur Radio bands below 30 MHz , except high power transmitter operation.

Basic Qualification:
* access all amateur bands above 30 MHz
* use a maximum of 250 watts DC transmitter input power
* build and operate all station equipment, except for "home-made" transmitters
* Basic with honours (80% or above score) - access to all amateur bands below 30 MHz
* There is no Morse code requirement on this test.

Advanced Qualification:
* access all amateur bands below 30 MHz
* use maximum transmitter power of 1000 watts DC input
* build and operate transmitting equipment
* establish repeaters and club stations
* remotely control fixed stations, including the use of radio links
* There is no Morse code requirement on this test.

Morse Code (5 wpm with Basic or Basic and Advanced Certificate):
* access to all amateur bands below 30 MHz

I think the US qualifications are: Technician, General, & Extra.

[Cheechako]

Only a bunch of HAMs could create this much diatribe around a simple question..... The radio's just another tool in the tool box boys..... not a golden idol to be worshipped. Yes and I am a ham........ :>) or is it? :>(