Ham Radio vs Marine SSB

[ka4wja]

Bill, et al,
Yeah, it may seem that I was a bit too hard on the guy in the video...(and yes I DID look him on qrz before I wrote what I did...and maybe my words were amplified because he's an Extra.)

Bill, I will concede that he may have been excited and forgot proper radio procedure.
Truth be told, I didn't notice any excitement in his voice nor mannerisms, but after reading your post Bill, I realize that everyone shows/expresses stress differently, and I probably should have thought of that and, as you wrote, "cut the guy in the video a little slack"...

So, my apologies here to anyone who thinks I was too harsh on him!

{Point of correction though, the Intercom Net runs to noon Eastern, not 11am....}




But, in explanation (not an excuse) I wish to say that I tend to hold other "Extra's" to a higher standard.
Maybe that is not "fair" in some people's opinion, but in mine, it is...

I don't think I'm writing anything here that Bill is not aware of....(as Bill, you've been a ham almost as long as I've been alive!!)
And, I'm certainly casual and conversational when speaking with friends, etc. on-the-air, but when involved in "real" communications I exercise (and expect others to exercise) proper radio operating procedures.






Here is where Bill and I diverge a bit (and while we may never agree on the merits of DSC and the GMDSS, I have faith that someday he'll come around....

Originally Posted by btrayfors

4. He needed to TALK TO SOMEONE to report finding an abandoned vessel

5. While he wasn't up on the USCG having (only recently) abandoned watch keeping on 2182kHz), he did exactly the right thing in making a call on Channel 16 as he saw and identified a tug nearby. He called the tug by name but got no answer.

6. He then moved to the Maritime Mobile Net frequency, 14300kHz, and got his message thru. It was sometime before 11AM because the Net Controller mentioned the Intercontinental Net which ends at 11AM Eastern time, when the Maritime Mobile Net begins on that frequency.

7. He went out of his way to identify the abandoned vessel, even turning around to sail back to it to try to find some registration markings.

Yes, I'll accept the fact that if he needed to TALK to someone, and couldn't raise anyone on the marine freqs, then he did a very good thing by tuning in 14.300mhz and getting the information thru to the correct authorities, and yes I admire him for doing that and for going out of his way to gather as much info as possible and pass it on...

My main point here is that while this video (and the discussion about it here) DOES show how the Amateur Radio Service (ham radio), can be a wonderful resource to many worldwide (at sea or on land), it also points out the importance of having the proper gear and knowledge on-board to accomplish relatively simple communications tasks (fixed-mount 25-watt VHF-DSC radios start at $150 retail....and the HF-DSC-SSB M-802 is about the cost of a few iPads, and will last a couple decades!!!)
It further demonstrates the negative effect of not having the proper communications gear on-board ((VHF-DSC and/or HF-DSC) and being ignorant of both:
a) the proper/accepted ways of contacting other vessels and/or shore stations, using DSC or on one of the Voice watch freqs that have been set-up just for this reason for years now...
(heck he could've even called WLO on HF....yes they are still standing-by, I just called 'em last week)
b) the basics radiowave propagation.


So, while my earlier words were unnecessarily harsh towards Kevin, the point I was trying to drive home was that he didn't actually know how to contact either another vessel, nor the coast guard....

And, it is unfortunate that many still propagate the myths that DSC is something, that "nobody uses", "doesn't work", or "it's just for big ships"...when the facts are that NONE of those myths are true at all...

The GMDSS has been with us for > 15 years, and maybe it's time for everyone here to get on-board, or publicly justify why they wish to discourage sailors from learning how-to properly signal for assistance, etc...
(yes, the amateur radio service / ham radio does a WONDERFUL job...and I encourage everyone who has any radio interest, to pursue their ham radio license...but this does not alleviate the need for sailors/cruisers to KNOW how-to signal for assistance and KNOW what equipment they should have on-board...)




Yes, there are alternatives...

Originally Posted by btrayfors

And, yes, 2182kHz is all but abandoned these days. There are good alternatives, however, for VOICE calls on HF/SSB.

As I wrote above (and for the past few years), the alternatives are HF-DSC...
(and, when within range of a USCG station, you could try HF-Voice on one of the GMDSS HF-Voice freqs of 4125, 6215, 8291, and 12290khz depending on the station you wish to contact...)





If you didn't have a DSC radio, then of course this makes sense...

Originally Posted by btrayfors

BTW, in this situation I would have used voice calls as well, not DSC.

But, my point is GMDSS has been with us for a couple decades now, and both VHF-DSC and HF-DSC are well established and successful, and with NO voice radio watch keeping required now for >15 years, why is it that many sailors assume that everything is still the same as it was in the 1970's when it comes to radio??? (they certainly don't feel that way about other on-board electronics!!)
Sorry Bill, but here we will need to respectfully agree to disagree....DSC is here to stay....
If he had a DSC radio, he could've sent a DSC Call (A "Urgency"-DSC Call, would be my decision...but others may have selected a "Safety"-DSC Call).....on VHF, this would've alerted other vessels in his area, and on HF this would've brought a response from the USCG (as well as alrted other vessels in his region)....
This would NOT have unnecessarily caused confusion about him being in distress....
Just 'cause it's DSC, doesn't mean it's a "Distress" call!!!

And, yes, VOICE communications is a vital part of the GMDSS.....but it comes after the DSC call (or INMARSAT-C call, or EPIRB alert)....
I never said that any/all of the vital info would have passed by DSC, but that DSC was the way to get someone on the radio to pass all the vital traffic....
I think this point is being lost in the haze here!!!



Again, I stand by my words/thoughts, but I hope the above clarifies them....


Fair winds.

John
s/v Annie Laurie

P.S. Just got off the phone this afternoon with a few USCG petty officers (one at the USCG NAVCEN and one at CAMSLANT), and they're working on some serious website errors/issues.....so give 'em a few days to get things sorted out..

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Once again, Dave, I think you need to think outside the European box!

Here in the Chesapeake region, all commercial vessels and many large yachts maintain a listening watch on Channel 13 VHF. I have yet to call one without prompt answer.

And, I try very hard NOT to call them, anyway, since I believe the best course of action to be to stay out of their way, no matter who has the "right of way".

Cheers,

Bill

Ch 13 is in common use in safety of navigation. I can call such ships by voice. I was referring to offshore usage.

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Capt RonB]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

Bill, et al,
Yeah, it may seem that I was a bit too hard on the guy in the video...(and yes I DID look him on qrz before I wrote what I did...and maybe my words were amplified because he's an Extra.)

Bill, I will concede that he may have been excited and forgot proper radio procedure.
Truth be told, I didn't notice any excitement in his voice nor mannerisms, but after reading your post Bill, I realize that everyone shows/expresses stress differently, and I probably should have thought of that and, as you wrote, "cut the guy in the video a little slack"...

So, my apologies here to anyone who thinks I was too harsh on him!

{Point of correction though, the Intercom Net runs to noon Eastern, not 11am....}

But, in explanation (not an excuse) I wish to say that I tend to hold other "Extra's" to a higher standard.
Maybe that is not "fair" in some people's opinion, but in mine, it is...

I don't think I'm writing anything here that Bill is not aware of....(as Bill, you've been a ham almost as long as I've been alive!!)
And, I'm certainly casual and conversational when speaking with friends, etc. on-the-air, but when involved in "real" communications I exercise (and expect others to exercise) proper radio operating procedures.

Here is where Bill and I diverge a bit (and while we may never agree on the merits of DSC and the GMDSS, I have faith that someday he'll come around.... Yes, I'll accept the fact that if he needed to TALK to someone, and couldn't raise anyone on the marine freqs, then he did a very good thing by tuning in 14.300mhz and getting the information thru to the correct authorities, and yes I admire him for doing that and for going out of his way to gather as much info as possible and pass it on...

My main point here is that while this video (and the discussion about it here) DOES show how the Amateur Radio Service (ham radio), can be a wonderful resource to many worldwide (at sea or on land), it also points out the importance of having the proper gear and knowledge on-board to accomplish relatively simple communications tasks (fixed-mount 25-watt VHF-DSC radios start at $150 retail....and the HF-DSC-SSB M-802 is about the cost of a few iPads, and will last a couple decades!!!)
It further demonstrates the negative effect of not having the proper communications gear on-board ((VHF-DSC and/or HF-DSC) and being ignorant of both:
a) the proper/accepted ways of contacting other vessels and/or shore stations, using DSC or on one of the Voice watch freqs that have been set-up just for this reason for years now...
(heck he could've even called WLO on HF....yes they are still standing-by, I just called 'em last week)
b) the basics radiowave propagation.

So, while my earlier words were unnecessarily harsh towards Kevin, the point I was trying to drive home was that he didn't actually know how to contact either another vessel, nor the coast guard....

And, it is unfortunate that many still propagate the myths that DSC is something, that "nobody uses", "doesn't work", or "it's just for big ships"...when the facts are that NONE of those myths are true at all...

The GMDSS has been with us for > 15 years, and maybe it's time for everyone here to get on-board, or publicly justify why they wish to discourage sailors from learning how-to properly signal for assistance, etc...
(yes, the amateur radio service / ham radio does a WONDERFUL job...and I encourage everyone who has any radio interest, to pursue their ham radio license...but this does not alleviate the need for sailors/cruisers to KNOW how-to signal for assistance and KNOW what equipment they should have on-board...)

Yes, there are alternatives...As I wrote above (and for the past few years), the alternatives are HF-DSC...
(and, when within range of a USCG station, you could try HF-Voice on one of the GMDSS HF-Voice freqs of 4125, 6215, 8291, and 12290khz depending on the station you wish to contact...)

If you didn't have a DSC radio, then of course this makes sense...
But, my point is GMDSS has been with us for a couple decades now, and both VHF-DSC and HF-DSC are well established and successful, and with NO voice radio watch keeping required now for >15 years, why is it that many sailors assume that everything is still the same as it was in the 1970's when it comes to radio??? (they certainly don't feel that way about other on-board electronics!!)
Sorry Bill, but here we will need to respectfully agree to disagree....DSC is here to stay....
If he had a DSC radio, he could've sent a DSC Call (A "Urgency"-DSC Call, would be my decision...but others may have selected a "Safety"-DSC Call).....on VHF, this would've alerted other vessels in his area, and on HF this would've brought a response from the USCG (as well as alrted other vessels in his region)....
This would NOT have unnecessarily caused confusion about him being in distress....
Just 'cause it's DSC, doesn't mean it's a "Distress" call!!!

Again, I stand by my words/thoughts, but I hope the above clarifies them....

Fair winds.

John
s/v Annie Laurie

P.S. Just got off the phone this afternoon with a few USCG petty officers (one at the USCG NAVCEN and one at CAMSLANT), and they're working on some serious website errors/issues.....so give 'em a few days to get things sorted out..

I hate to throw a hand grenade in here but doesn't all of this sound extremely complex. Consider too we're discussing technology from the late 19th century (Marconi won the Nobel in 1909).

Get a decent Sat phone setup and get instant voice or data connections without the hassle ... if you need a hobby, well that's different.

Flak jacket ...ON

[ka4wja]

Capt Ron,
1) No need for a flack jacket for comments from me...
Other than the big thread drift from voice comms with "Ham radio vs. Marine HF radio", all the way to satellite derived voice and data comms...


2) Capt Ron you are correct in pointing out that what we are all talking about is based on some very old technology!!!
All "wireless" communications, whether HF radio (ham or marine), Satellite comms (Iridium, INMARSAT, GlobalStar, Directv, DISH Net, Sky TV, etc.), AM, FM, Sirius/XM, cellular phones, 3G/4G, Wi-Fi, etc. etc....are ALL
based on, and are derived from, the basics laid out by Marconi!!! (some of my old ham friends used to joke that we could stay up late on Saturday night as long as we prayed to an idol of Marconi

Originally Posted by Capt RonB

I hate to throw a hand grenade in here but doesn't all of this sound extremely complex. Consider too we're discussing technology from the late 19th century (Marconi won the Nobel in 1909).

They are ALL the same basic systems...
The variations are the frequency used and modulation types...
BTW, the freqs Marconi used are NOWHERE near what we use on HF thesedays, nor are our modulation types (heck none of these were invented/discovered until the 1930's and 40's....and most only came into wide use in the 1950's and 60's)

HF-DSC is a fairly recent invention, having come along in the mid-late 1990's....(being required by Jan 1999)
Which ironically was AFTER the invention of satellite communications by about 3 decades....and AFTER the 1987 invention of the Iridium Satellite System....(iridium was originally conceived / designed by 3 engineers working for Motorola, named Bary Bertiger, Dr. Ray Leopold and Ken Peterson in 1987...)
Motorola developed and implemented the system and launched many satellites over the next 10 years, primary development was in the early-mid 90's, with the first full-time users on-line in 1996/97....and us gov't users on-line in 1997/98, with full-time consumer users on-line in 1998!!!

So, Iridium was being developed along a similar timeline as HF-DSC, but about 1 - 2 years ahead/earlier....
Which would make Iridium "older technology" when compared to HF-DSC...

Yes, there have been newer and updated phones with more features, just like there are newer and more feature-rich HF radios that have come along in recent years....
But, this is all still the same basic technology and systems...

They BOTH work VERY well....and they are designed to do two completely different things / two completely different purposes....
They are not competing systems/technologies, but rather are complimentary systems/technologies!!!







3) Nothing wrong with a sat phone.....but they are NOT a substitute for a good HF radio, especially an HF-DSC radio...

Originally Posted by Capt RonB

Get a decent Sat phone setup and get instant voice or data connections without the hassle ... if you need a hobby, well that's different.

Please understand that they BOTH work VERY well....but, they are designed to do two completely different things, and have two completely different purposes....
They are not competing systems/technologies, but rather are complimentary systems/technologies!!!

I won't write a treatise here...but understanding the basics might be a good idea, yes???

a) HF-Radio (and specifically HF-DSC radio) is designed to broadcast to everyone at once....whether you're asking about weather, or seeking advice about a specific harbor or island, etc., or signaling a "Distress"....
These calls go to everyone at once....

b) Satellite telephone communications is just like your phone at home or your cellular/mobile phone...
You dial a number of someone you know (or a company/service, etc.) and you can talk to them....
Using a data connection thru a sat phone, although a bit more involved and complicated, gives you a low-speed data connection / e-mail contact with someone or some service (OCENS, saildocs, etc.)
These calls go to ONE person or service, and only to them...

c) How are going to call another vessel with your sat phone???
How are going to call/talk to other sailors/cruisers on a sat phone???
How are you going to send out a Distress / Mayday on your sat phone???
And, remember that the "Gold Standard" of offshore marine weather is transmitted for FREE over HF radio worldwide, with especially excellent coverage along all the popular sailing routes and cruising locales, as well along all shipping routes, etc....(actually worldwide, for FREE), and accessing this via a sat phone costs you your "per minute" charges...
Etc. etc...


d) Further, understand that "instant" communications might be what you get from a sat phone, when sitting in your cockpit, at anchor, on a clear day, with the phone in your hand...
But, they will not work below deck without an external fixed-mount antenna....
And, a data connection adds a bit more complication....and unless you can manage holding your phone correctly, and balancing your laptop well, all out in the cockpit on a nice day, you're going to want to use the system below decks....and again you'll need that ext antenna....

And, that's with iridium....
If you've decided to "save" some money with the INMARSAT isatPhone, you're going to need an even more expensive external antenna.....and/or you're going to find the frustration of trying to find/point that handheld antenna at the geostationary satellite's approx. angle, to be a real pain...


Again, I don't have time to write a treatise here, but please accept an ironic fact....I've made my living in satellite communications for the past 30+ years, and LOVE it....
I LOVE Iridium....
I was one of the first users of Iridium back in '97 (my brother was a senior software engineer for Motorola for 20 years, and we got free use of Iridium phones during beta-testing)
But, I would NEVER advise anyone that a "sat phone" was a substitute for an HF-DSC radio....they are two VERY different things!!!



I hope this helps...

Fair winds..

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[Coutret]

Going back to my original post, I passed the technician class license test today. I won't have many privileges, but I will be able to get on my radio in a couple of weeks when my call sign is issued.

[rebel heart]

As a guy who uses a satellite phone and has a ham/ssb onboard:

- I have the satellite phone for business because I need to make voice calls. If I didn't have that need, I doubt I'd have the phone.

- Satellite phones are flukey. I've had two times where mine has been de-activated by the billing company. When this happens it becomes a paperweight, and both times it was a paperwork error on their part. It's easy for paperwork problems to happen when traveling international by boat.

- When they work, satellite phones are the (long term) most expensive and easiest way to do email, voice, and weather.

- I'd say maybe 1/3 of the offshore boats I know have ham licenses. Those who don't have it generally have plans to get it.

- All of the popular nets I've participated in have been SSB. When you want to have a lot of people in a net, you do it with SSB. No real way around that.

If I didn't need my satellite phone for my job I'd have an SSB with a modem, and eventually study for the ham exam because why not?

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Coutret

Going back to my original post, I passed the technician class license test today. I won't have many privileges, but I will be able to get on my radio in a couple of weeks when my call sign is issued.

Congrats!


Hopefully, if you decide to take the general exam, you'll have no problems with that one either!

[Coutret]

I'm going to start studying right away. There is a test date in mid-April.

[btrayfors]

Coutret: Congratulations! Don't slack off now...it only takes a few more hours of study to get the General Class. No kidding! Go for it, as it's the lowest class ham license which is really useful on a boat.

Rebel Heart: Do it anyway, even if you have a sat phone and marine SSB. It will always come in handy, is easy to do, and much of what you learn while studying will help you on the boat, anyway.

I've had all three on my boat for many years: ham radio, marine SSB radio, and sat phone. I've found them to be useful (and most used) in that order.

Bill
WA6CCA

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Coutret: Congratulations! Don't slack off now...it only takes a few more hours of study to get the General Class. No kidding! Go for it, as it's the lowest class ham license which is really useful on a boat.

Rebel Heart: Do it anyway, even if you have a sat phone and marine SSB. It will always come in handy, is easy to do, and much of what you learn while studying will help you on the boat, anyway.


Bill
WA6CCA

Bill, you have said it well. Let me add my endorsement to your advice, and my congratulations to Coutret.

73 de Jim VK4GFT/N9GFT

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

This would NOT have unnecessarily caused confusion about him being in distress....
Just 'cause it's DSC, doesn't mean it's a "Distress" call!!!

Indeed! I am amazed that even some of the gods of radio still think this way.

But it is true that few people on either side of the pond really know how to use it for anything other than distress situations.

I make it a rule to call the UK Coast Guard only by DSC! Even for radio checks! They are always amazed that someone does this, but it is the right way to communicate, in my opinion. You don't clutter up 16 with your radio checks, and you are checking your DSC equipment at the same time.

If you're trying to call someone you've identified on AIS (as in the video situation here), it is a doddle to call that ship by DSC, since the MMSI is displayed. I'm sure your chances of making contact are much higher than simply making a voice call.

And a "Securite" DSC call, in that situation, would surely have been the best way to raise someone in the general area, without causing any confusion about any distress situation.

Curiously, this official U.S. government site still recommends such calls to be made to the MF DSC frequency: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=DSCSafety. The frequency which as far as I understand is no longer guarded. WTF?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

WTF?

They just don't give a F. You could call for help using DSC here in the Caribbean all day with the only result being people switching their radios off to stop the siren sound.

It's why we put some money into gear and supplies that could allow us to save ourselves instead of depending on others for help. I decided this option after observing the Grenada coastguard being called to help by a boat on the reef. It took them 12 hours to get to the scene 2 nm away from their base in Prickly Bay. By that time, other cruisers had done one failed attempt to pull the boat off the reef, got the skipper to hospital with a heart attack, and with the next high tide succeeded to pull the boat off and anchor it securely in Mt. Hartman Bay.

After the rescue, salvage and a breakfast, we saw the coastguard arriving, or at least a cloud of black smoke that we assume contained their boat. It went to the reef, circled, found nothing, then returned to their station.
Their story was that they first needed a mechanic to fix the engines, then a fuel truck to bring diesel etc. etc. 12 hours.

[ka4wja]

Dockhead,
This is an unfortunate "website issue"....

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Curiously, this official U.S. government site still recommends such calls to be made to the MF DSC frequency: DSC Safety. The frequency which as far as I understand is no longer guarded. WTF?

This website info is in error!!



I mentioned this briefly lat week:

Originally Posted by ka4wja

P.S. Just got off the phone this afternoon with a few USCG petty officers (one at the USCG NAVCEN and one at CAMSLANT), and they're working on some serious website errors/issues.....so give 'em a few days to get things sorted out..

The USCG used to have a very detailed page describing both the proper GMDSS VOICE freqs that they monitor, as well as recommendations to use HF-DSC....and even detailed procedures instructing vessels how-to do a DSC "test call" to them, that would result in an automated ACK (response) from the USCG....(and I did try it even last week and it does work)....
BUT....
But, somehow the USCG "IT dept" and/or the webmaster has screwed up, and "old" and erroneous information has showed up on their website...
I brought it to the attention and was assured that it would be corrected...
But, now I see I need to call 'em again and light a fire under their asses!!



And, while I do understand the assumption that they don't give a f..., they actually do care...just a bureaucracy getting in the way....



Fair winds...

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[ka4wja]

Update....
After only getting thru to some USCG honcho's voice mail....I did finally talk to a very nice young petty officer this morning...

Originally Posted by ka4wja

But, now I see I need to call 'em again and light a fire under their asses!!
....just a bureaucracy getting in the way..

She informed me of the major snow/ice storm crippling Washington DC area....and that few people are actually working today....
(some gov't we have, huh?? a little snow storm and they all take a day off!)

I resent my e-mails and maybe I'll get them off their assess today....but not holding my breath...
Anyway, I'll try calling again in a day or two, and I'll update you all as I have info...


EDIT....
~~~~~~~~~~~
New update....

Just got a response from the USCG Operations Systems Center....(they are aware of the bad info, and are in the process of fixing it)

Good Afternoon Mr. MacDougall,

Thank you for the information. (Unfortunately, CAMSLANT is not the webmaster for the NAVCEN website. As such, we are unable to modify any information presented there.) However, NAVCEN personnel and the USCG Headquarters directorate in charge of communications are aware of the issue and are working to correct it. If you have any further information, please let us know.

Respectfully,
OSC C. Cruickshank

So, hopefully it will be corrected in short order....or at least if the weather allows...

~~~~~~~~~



Fair winds.

John
s/v Annie Laurie

[ka4wja]

GOOD NEWS...


The USCG is aware of the issue with the erroneous info on their site and are working on fixing it (as of noon today, at least)...

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Curiously, this official U.S. government site still recommends such calls to be made to the MF DSC frequency: DSC Safety. The frequency which as far as I understand is no longer guarded. WTF?

Here are the two recent responses from the USCG....

Good Afternoon Mr. MacDougall,

Thank you for the information. (Unfortunately, CAMSLANT is not the webmaster for the NAVCEN website. As such, we are unable to modify any information presented there.) However, NAVCEN personnel and the USCG Headquarters directorate in charge of communications are aware of the issue and are working to correct it. If you have any further information, please let us know.

Respectfully,

Thank you for bringing this oversight to our attention. Please know that we are currently working with responsible parties to correct the deficiencies with this website, and hope to have it corrected soon. If you have any further questions and/or concerns, please feel free to contact me ASAP.
73,
Sincerely,

So, it appears that they ARE working on the problem....give 'em a few more days and they should have it rectified...



Fair winds,

John
s/v Annie Laurie