Electric self steering windvane help

[Islander53]

I'm looking for ideas or products already available.

Recently sold my monitor windvane. I never got it to work that well. I hated the design.. 20 feet of rope to wheel , then another 20 ft chain and cable to the quadrant. .

I recently upgraded to a simrad nac3/ l&s 63 hydraulic autopilot. This is a very robust system directly mounted to the rudder shaft .

I just purchased a b&g 310 wireless wind sensor I plan to mount on the mast head. I'm hoping to find success using my autopilot in wind vane mode.

This got me thinking about back ups and redundancy. I do have a back up rotary autopilot that drives the chain but like the main autopilot, it relys on a computer and compass. Part of me didn't want to ditch the wind vane . But I hated everything about it , so I did.

What I'm looking for now is I guess a mechanical/electrical hybrid windvane. I picture a very simple mechanical wind vane , which you would point into the wind like you would on a monitor. And it's a simple on/off in either direction . Maybe it needs some sort of rudder stopping switche to prevent accidental hard over .
But no computer just mechanical contacts .

I view my new l&s hydraulic unit as extremely reliable and likely still going to work in last days when gps is down and compases are spinning in circles. I know I could always rig a crude fly by wire switch to steer the boat via hydraulic ram only if I had to . Assuming I had power.


Maybe this is stupid, maybe it already exists.

[pilott]

I believe that Cape Horn windvanes can used as a hybrid, by being linked to a tiller autopilot.
The autopilot gives the directional input, requiring very low power draw. The servo-pendulum then does the grunt work of steering the boat.

[Suijin]

I have the B&G autopilot equivalent of your Simrad. Very happy with it. The sailing controls, specifically sailing to a dialed in apparent wind angle, and the auto-tack feature work extremely well.

But I also have a Monitor wind vane and use it when sailing on beam reaches and further off the wind and would not leave the dock on a long passage without it. It has already been pressed into service when the breaker for my autopilot failed during one passage.

I don't think what you are looking for exists. You're basically looking for a wind vane, and the Monitor is a pretty simple example. The issue with wind vanes is always power...where do they get the power to move the wheel/tiller, as they are not going to get it from the wind paddle alone? That leaves you with a water paddle, and the interaction between the wind paddle and water paddle pretty much relies on servo-pendulum or similar. In other words you're kinda looking for a unicorn.

[Islander53]

Originally Posted by Suijin

I don't think what you are looking for exists. You're basically looking for a wind vane, and the Monitor is a pretty simple example. The issue with wind vanes is always power...where do they get the power to move the wheel/tiller, as they are not going to get it from the wind paddle alone? That leaves you with a water paddle, and the interaction between the wind paddle and water paddle pretty much relies on servo-pendulum or similar. In other words you're kinda looking for a unicorn.

The wind vane part would only be a "mechanical see sensor" and the power would come from the hydraulic power pack / ram. Powered by batteries.

The problem I mentioned about the monitor was the rope to wheel connection. At one point I thought about running the monitor directly to the quadrant. I just don't think it would be powerful enough to steer my 35 ton boat without decent mechanical advantage .(like going to the wheel provides) and the idea of having a long enough leverage arm on the rudder stock probably wouldn't fit.

I tend to reinvent the wheel, but I actually think there is a lot of potential for this idea to be reliable and a very good addition to any electrically driven auto pilot. If it can by pass all of potential failure points of a normal electrical autopilot, your left with a stupid simple, strong, compact self steering system , in addition to your magnetic autopilot.

[Islander53]

I think pendulum style windvane would work easily. Basically it shuts off power when balanced into the wind, and when it falls to one side it engages the electric/hydraulic ram to the correct direction.
The more I think about it , the simpler it seems.
Does no one else see the potential here?

[roverhi]

Doubt that hooking a wind vane self steering system direct to the rudder would work on a wheel/cable steered boat. The drag/inertia of the wheel steering would require too much force to overcome at slower speeds. Once had to use the emergency tiller to steer my boat with the wheel and cables still connected. It took a lot of force to overcome the inertia of the wheel and doubt a Pendulum Servo Vane like a Monitor would have the oomph to steer the boat for most of the speed range. Might work with a hydraulic system if there was a bypass valve to cut the hydraulics out of the system or on a cable system if you could easily disconnect the cables..

[Adelie]

Several models of autopilot have the option of using a wind sensor

http://www.raymarine.com/view/?id=1264

https://www.bandg.com/bg/type/autopi...lot-computers/

[Islander53]

I don't think anyone understands what I'm trying to say

I currently have a working modern day autopilot that consists of a Simrad nss7, Precision 9 compass, nac3 computer, B&G WS 320 wind sensor,, L&S 63 s t linear Drive reversible hydraulic motor

this setup works great and allows me to use the electric autopilot as a wind vane and has all the other luxuries of a modern autopilot this system can easily steer my cable and quadrant steering setup and it has a built-in bypass valve

now out of everything listed above that my autopilot consists of the L & S 63 is bound to be the most reliable and simple part this system

It works by applying power to the motor to extend the hydraulic ram and you reverse the wires to contract the hydraulic ram I could very easily set up a 2-way momentary switch and drive the boat with no steering wheel or cable

now picture just the paddle and pendulum system of a monitor, forget the rudder in the water.

when the wind vane is pointing into the wind and standing straight up there is no power to the pump

when the wind vane paddle Falls to one side it applies power to the motor which turns the rudder until the wind vane is standing straight up again where the power is disconnected

and obviously it works the same the other way

now what I've done is eliminated the $6,000 worth of complicated, proprietary, gear that I would normally need to run electric autopilot in wind vane mode . No need for a wind sensor, compass, plotter screen , no nac3 power source. . Just a few mechanically activated switches. And maybe a fuse.

I'm sure it would need some calibration and maybe a way to limit the rudder but I think the whole system could consist of only four switches

I picture something about the quarter of the size of a monitor windvane paddle and it could be mounted anywhere that has good airflow like on top of an arch

maybe I'm not explaining it well enough or using the right terminology but someone out there might get it

I know there will be a lot of negative comments but personally I think that the electric hydraulic ram would be more reliable than all the moving parts of the standard pendulum servo wind vane.

This is also a stand a lone back up to your typical electric autopilot. And I believe could be made very very cheap and reliable. .

[Islander53]

(quote).

This is also a stand a lone back up to your typical electric autopilot. And I believe could be made very very cheap and reliable. .[/QUOTE]

(Quote)

A stand alone back up to most complicated , prone to fail part of a modern auto pilot set up. . Obviously the drive unit needs to work still

[Islander53]

Thinking out loud here ... This would probably be very easy to adapt to an existing windvane. Gives the option for full manual operation with the vanes rudder down in the water like usual or go electric assist . With the rudder up and disconnected.

But hell everyone is probably perfectly happy with their monitor windvane just as it sits. That's why this product doesn't exist

[olaf hart]

I suspect the real world problems linking an on/off switched vane to an autopilot drive would send you nuts.

The autopilot computer is there for a reason, an on/off switch would have you oscillating all over the water.

[wingssail]

I agree with olaf hart. Your concept would have no modulation. Any deviation to the apparent wind would give "full over" signal to the drive unit, then as the boat passes back into the wind, you get "full over" the other direction.

Even the basic monitor has a proportional response. Electronic autopilots have sophisticated logic to protect from over control, adjust for sea condtions, etc.

BTW, a monitor is designed to connect to a tiller not too far from the rudder shaft. An extension to a quadrant essentially becomes a tiller. A connection to a quadrant extension seems doable. However, your boat is heavy, I am not sure if a monitor could steer it in any case.

[Islander53]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I agree with olaf hart. Your concept would have no modulation. Any deviation to the apparent wind would give "full over" signal to the drive unit, then as the boat passes back into the wind, you get "full over" the other direction.

Yeah, that's where my thinking came to an end. One thought was to severally limiting how much it could turn the rudder but it would probably still just go back and forth.

Fun to think about not having to rely on over priced disposable electronics .

[Islander53]

I think this idea originally stemmed from my question of why boats our size don't use fly by wire steering systems.

I was messing around docking the boat using the autopilot dial to steer the boat. It was amazing. I could very easily get used a steering system as responsive as the linear drive. My 1978 cable and quadrant steering scares me . It is at least 20 feet of cable and goes thru at least 5 shives before it makes it to the quadrant. It's extremely unresponsive with a massive wheel. . . I feel like a fly by wire steering wheel to my current lenear drive would be far superior. And you always have a emergency tiller as a fail safe.

[Jim Cate]

And you always have a emergency tiller as a fail safe.

Just wonderin'... have you ever tried to mount and steer by your emergency tiller? Many of them are essentially useless. Some center cockpit designs have it below decks in the aft cabin... ain't that special!

Jim