|
|
19-08-2019, 17:15
|
#61
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,112
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpsonjcat
I would add an inexpensive manual tuner to that kit, in case the fancy one craps out.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja
stimpsonjcat,
Although I did mention this above, I suspect that it might've gotten lost in all the other info...
So, thank you for this.
|
Thank you stimpsonjcat (and John). That sounds like good advice, and yes, I confess, I had lost track of that info in John's post.
I have no idea what such an item would cost, but if I can afford it then it makes good sense.
__________________
Refitting… again.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 17:26
|
#62
|
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 624
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Check out HRO for an inexpensive ham stick. Here's one for $19.95. Search their website for a selection of them.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 18:08
|
#63
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Niceville, Florida
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 31
Posts: 45
|
Re: DIY HF whip
I have an old Texas Bugcatcher that is destined for the boat. I don’t know yet how it will hold up in the Marine Environment. One advantage is that once the coil is marked for the clip to attach for desired operating frequencies for a particular installation, then no tuner is needed. It will load connected directly to the transceiver output. It can be disassembled and stored below until needed. With Alligator clips a wire can be clipped to the end of the whip and strung to the mast to further lengthen the antenna. It is a wind-catcher however. It used to jerk my compact car around on windy days and might best be kept below when not being used. I plan to use a Hustler quick disconnect mount, probably on the bow pulpit. Will look odd when mounted.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 18:12
|
#64
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,583
|
Re: DIY HF whip
captmob,
Please forgive me, but I'm assuming that you're not serious here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captmob
Screwdriver antenna from Tarheel Ant or an Outback ant. Easy and can’t be better. Marc N5PSL ��
|
a) In addition to the costs involved, a screwdriver antenna on an mid-sized ocean-going sailboat is unlikely to be electrically (nor mechanically) reliable....even if kept stowed below decks...and of course requires power wires and controller (different than a remote tuner, but could be adapted in a pinch)...and, of course this would take up significant (and precious) space on-board....
Compare that to, a 20' - 40' piece of scrap wire takes up almost no space (and is probably free!)...add in a small manual tuner ($50), about the size of a paper-back book, and ask how much spare space do most have on-board?
Also, the weight and complexity of a screwdriver antenna make its use in emergency situations (especially when a mounting arrangement would probably need to be jury-rigged for such an antenna system after a dismasting)...
Further, while a screwdriver antenna might be a good compromise HF mobile/vehicle antenna, where you are limited in height and where you cannot utilize a horizontal antenna....much better / more effective (and more efficient) antennas have already been discussed here...
b) The Outbacker antenna isn't cheap either...and...
An outbacker (while it can be used on different bands) is just about as inefficient HF whip as you can find....about the same as a "hamstick jr."...
And, while you can plug in the wire to the different tap positions in order to use the darn thing on different bands, this connection can be fraught with intermittent connections....
And, while this might be an easy antenna to mount, here again, in a sea-air environment this would not be my choice (a scrap piece of wire would be better)...
[so, I'm assuming that these suggestions are just in jest? ]
[Fyi, in all my years of HF maritime comms (starting in 1973)...and/or ham comms, I have seen one (and only one) screwdriver antenna on a boat....the guy wrote on-line that he loved it...he said it worked better than his backstay...BUT...
But, when pressed to do actual comparisons, he failed to see it work well....matter of fact he used his backstay from then on....
And, I did see one guy (15 years ago??) with an Outbacker on his stern rail, on a ~30' sailboat in Florida...had no working tuner, but only used it on 14.300....he said "it worked" (which is of course, testament to how wonderful HF comms from above sea water is....not really a great example of the antenna itself...]
Now we've even got some here writing to go and buy a "hamstick"?
And, another saying to use an 18" Marine VHF antenna?
(and, while I admire my fellow hams that have used Texas Bugcatchers in their mobile operations, this here is also a rather odd choice for a marine antenna...the sea-air environment will make reliable tap connections problematic....and while it would be a more efficient antenna than a hamstick, outbacker, etc...on a boat a scrap piece of wire, tossed on the deck and/or thrown-up on a fishing pole is going to work better...
This is starting to read like an April Fool's thread...
Matt,
Fyi, an emergency tuner is not an absolute necessity!!
(you know I'm a radio nut, for over 45 years....and yes, I do have one on-board....but, most do not....)
And yep, some times I write too much....and the good stuff kinda gets lost...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
Thank you stimpsonjcat (and John). That sounds like good advice, and yes, I confess, I had lost track of that info in John's post.
I have no idea what such an item would cost, but if I can afford it then it makes good sense.
|
As for cost of a small manual tuner?
I bought mine (an older MFJ 901 antenna tuner), for about $20 USD (used, but in perfect condition) at a hamfest...
I suggest searching ham radio websites (eham, qrz,) and ebay, etc....where you can find one for less than $50 USD....
If you wish to buy one new?
I think they're about $90- 100 USD
https://www.universal-radio.com/cata...tune/1327.html
Of course, you will probably find the much more ubiquitous MFJ-941's and MFJ-945's used (and maybe even see some MFJ-949's pretty cheap, on the used market, these days)...for about the same prices....and they would be good as well...
Hope this helps.
Fair winds
John
__________________
John, KA4WJA
s/v Annie Laurie, WDB6927
MMSI# 366933110
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 18:31
|
#65
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FLORIDA
Boat: Alden 50, Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 3,464
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja
captmob,
Please forgive me, but I'm assuming that you're not serious here?
a) In addition to the costs involved, a screwdriver antenna on an mid-sized ocean-going sailboat is unlikely to be electrically (nor mechanically) reliable...
John
|
Somebody tell mine which has been used extensively onboard exposed consistently to some nasty weather in the UV capitol of the world. Real world experience....
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 18:35
|
#66
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Niceville, Florida
Boat: Pacific Seacraft 31
Posts: 45
|
Re: DIY HF whip
I like the idea of a small manual tuner stored well protected . I have the large MFJ model with the roller inductor but it is too large. But I have had to polish the inductor due to corrosion from sitting unused in a dry garage for years. I still like the idea of one of the wire or emergency antenna books. With knowledge, wire, and time, one can get a powered up working transceiver to get a signal out.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 18:50
|
#67
|
Registered User
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Florida
Boat: Catalina 470
Posts: 2,583
|
Re: DIY HF whip
s/v Illusion,
That is good info....thank you.
You are only the second sailor I've ever heard of that uses a screwdriver antenna on-board.
Good that you've had good results....forgive me though, as I'd not recommend them as an emergency HF antenna, after a dismasting...
Maybe, I should write this more clearly?
In my opinion, having only ever seen one on a boat ever (and now heard of another here, from s/v Illusion), and with the reliability issues that my friend (for > 35 years) has had with his on his truck in Florida, and with the weight / size, cost, etc....again, in my opinion, this is not a good choice for Matt (the original poster).
Fair winds.
John
__________________
John, KA4WJA
s/v Annie Laurie, WDB6927
MMSI# 366933110
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 19:09
|
#68
|
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FLORIDA
Boat: Alden 50, Sarasota, Florida
Posts: 3,464
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja
s/v Illusion,
That is good info....thank you.
You are only the second sailor I've ever heard of that uses a screwdriver antenna on-board.
Good that you've had good results....forgive me though, as I'd not recommend them as an emergency HF antenna, after a dismasting...
Maybe, I should write this more clearly?
In my opinion, having only ever seen one on a boat ever (and now heard of another here, from s/v Illusion), and with the reliability issues that my friend (for > 35 years) has had with his on his truck in Florida, and with the weight / size, cost, etc....again, in my opinion, this is not a good choice for Matt (the original poster).
Fair winds.
John
|
Don’t know what your friend’s issue was. All I can say is it is best service antenna there is in my experience and if the lives of my family or mine depends on an antenna, this type has no peer.
Others I know in Florida in my radio club have used them without problems or issues for a very long time. I suspect your friend may be an anomaly.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 19:24
|
#69
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,112
|
DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Possum
I have an old Texas Bugcatcher that is destined for the boat. I don’t know yet how it will hold up in the Marine Environment. One advantage is that once the coil is marked for the clip to attach for desired operating frequencies for a particular installation, then no tuner is needed. It will load connected directly to the transceiver output. It can be disassembled and stored below until needed. With Alligator clips a wire can be clipped to the end of the whip and strung to the mast to further lengthen the antenna. It is a wind-catcher however. It used to jerk my compact car around on windy days and might best be kept below when not being used. I plan to use a Hustler quick disconnect mount, probably on the bow pulpit. Will look odd when mounted.
|
This rings a bit of a bell with my previous studies.
The idea of the coil being pre-marked for given frequencies sounds very helpful. I wonder if I could do something similar with the squid pole idea from El Pinguino? Have a selection of different wire lengths or tap points on the wire, since in an emergency I’d know in advance which set of frequencies I am likely to need.
__________________
Refitting… again.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 19:42
|
#70
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 4,759
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Screwdriver antennas are meant for use for land-mobile HF at moderate (10-100w) power ranges, either without a tuner or with a tuner of limited coupling range. The tuner function is built into the antenna. They are a base-loaded design with a whip that is, electrically, too short (see upthread). The "screwdriver" portion is a variable inductor that is tuned to provide a match that the transmitter can live with. It is motorized and can be either manually or automatically controlled. A separate antenna tuner isn't required.
As a general rule, they cost over $500 (U.S.).
They have a reputation for suffering from overheating and corrosion, though some are better than others.
They are neither cheap nor reliable. They are best known for allowing all-band operation from a car or truck, with a whip that is small enough to fit under a highway bridge.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 19:49
|
#71
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 4,759
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
This rings a bit of a bell with my previous studies.
The idea of the coil being pre-marked for given frequencies sounds very helpful. I wonder if I could do something similar with the squid pole idea from El Pinguino? Have a selection of different wire lengths or tap points on the wire, since in an emergency I’d know in advance which set of frequencies I am likely to need.
|
Well, whatever works for you.
It is my experience that nobody is at their best during (or in the immediate aftermath) of an emergency. If you are really expecting to use this setup in an emergency, make it easy. Make it safe. Make it bulletproof. Clipping a tap onto a coil is none of those things, and if you're going to play that game, you need an SWR meter to be sure you got it right and that nothing has changed since you marked the tap points.
People complain that HF is unreliable. Well you have to do everything right, and you have to use it, and be familiar with it, and be able to determine when it needs maintenance, and be able to do the maintenance (or supervise it). Then it works. Well, mostly.
|
|
|
19-08-2019, 23:51
|
#72
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,112
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Well, whatever works for you.
It is my experience that nobody is at their best during (or in the immediate aftermath) of an emergency. If you are really expecting to use this setup in an emergency, make it easy. Make it safe. Make it bulletproof. Clipping a tap onto a coil is none of those things, and if you're going to play that game, you need an SWR meter to be sure you got it right and that nothing has changed since you marked the tap points.
People complain that HF is unreliable. Well you have to do everything right, and you have to use it, and be familiar with it, and be able to determine when it needs maintenance, and be able to do the maintenance (or supervise it). Then it works. Well, mostly.
|
I'm thinking of the scenario where the ATU has been fried. (I probably shouldn't have said in an emergency. This would be more about reinstating the ability to contact the marine HF monitoring station at Charleville.)
I mean, yes, I can see a situation of a lightening strike taking out the ATU just before the mast falls over the side, because, hey, it's a boat.
But on the off chance one OR the other occurs, I am thinking a pre-tuned multi-tap might be the way to deal with a fried ATU with a minimum of fuss. Since, at this point, the backstay antenna will be no good without the ATU.
I really need to dig out my old HAM license theory materials and have a read.
But I can also see the need for a SWR meter on board, even if it is just to help tune a multi-tap antenna in the first place. The ICOM 802 does not have a SWR meter in the true sense of the word, though stuff I have read suggests you can infer a lot from the output power meter.
__________________
Refitting… again.
|
|
|
20-08-2019, 02:05
|
#73
|
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,241
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
..........
But I can also see the need for a SWR meter on board, .....
|
IMHO, yes, you need a SWR meter on board - checking HF and VHF power, antenna feeders and antennas.
Don't leave home without one (again IMHO).
Just as important as your DMM (IMHO).
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
|
|
|
20-08-2019, 03:27
|
#74
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,112
|
Re: DIY HF whip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
IMHO, yes, you need a SWR meter on board - checking HF and VHF power, antenna feeders and antennas.
Don't leave home without one (again IMHO).
Just as important as your DMM (IMHO).
|
IMHO, SWR, DMM...?
Mate, you've gone acronymic on me.
Yep, you are right of course. And the funny thing is, when Australia Post misplaced my electronics kit a few weeks back the thing I was really upset about was my faithful old DMM. It and I have been through so much together, I love it more than my dog.
__________________
Refitting… again.
|
|
|
20-08-2019, 03:38
|
#75
|
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,241
|
Re: DIY HF whip
^^ TLA, FLA, AFA, YMMV...
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|
|