Current state of affairs for HF

[TLSparks]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Agreed that Satphone is more vulnerable to political maneuvering than SSB. Also, something I didn't mention before, is that using the ham radio has made us friends in advance of arrival in locations all the way across the Pacific, and when you talk to the people on boats ahead of you on the routes, you catch all the gossip about the areas, and again, learn places you might prefer to avoid because they are having troubles locally.

For TL Sparks, part of how you go with this will depend on the importance of DSC for you. If this matters, then possibly the 802 will be a good deal for you (although friends have had way too much trouble with theirs, mostly the transmission dropping out totally and unpredictably. Many trips to ICOM Australia. After 2 yrs., gave up, ditched the radio. In all fairness, I do not know the quality of the installation.) Otherwise, ham clubs sell off older gear frequently, and you could get a good ham radio pretty inexpensively.



Ann

From what I have seen with regard to installations by "professional installers" in the US at high prices, most do not work. I worked on 3 or 4 hundred in Mexico for cruising friends, most new 802 installs. Te shortcuts they took caused major problems. The owners were just told, yes everything works fine and it never did. The people that install the radio themselves typically took the time to do it right and if any issues, they were always minor. As you can tell I am not a big fan of 99% of the "professional installers". Most of the ones in the US do not even have the proper license to test the radio. Memorized a bunch of answers, got a ham license, and now they are professionals. The M802 works great if installed properly. Save $1000 TO $2000 dollars and do it yourself, just plan it out, ask questions and do it right.

[Pizzazz]

Regarding HF DSC, there is an app called PersonalDSC for $79 that makes any HF radio DSC capable. You can go that route if you insist n DSC capabilities. However, HF DSC receive is a little useless for recreational boaters (if within 20 nm, you will hear them on VHF, if between 20 and 100 nm you will likely hear nothing on HF, if further away than 100 nm you will catch the transmission but you will be one day away, unlikely to be helpful). In any case, you can use the app above.

If in trouble, I would much rather send an SMS and get immediate confirmation/ETA then let the rescue center coordinate the ships than manage it myself but again, the app gives your rescue center class DSC capability.

Lastly, regarding the social aspect, SMS allows you a direct gateway to Facebook and the other social apps. HF social nets get you access to, well a select group of people of a certain min age. I am not sure which approach is more social.

[Nicor]

Originally Posted by Jammer

The question to me is just whether it's worth the money and the effort

That's main reason not even a close definitive answer can be given to you.
'worth' is relative to the personal feeling and cash to spend.

Myself, I would go with an Icom M802 and some HF 'rugged' mobile unit.
The Icom IC-718 is not very well protected from the elements, but it is electrically compatible with the AT-140 Antenna Tuner, NOT pin to pin.

I do like my 718. its getting long in the tooth though.

There is numerous DIY instructions on installing the M802, all the way from the radio to the antenna and the proper grounding of it.

[Symphony]

Originally Posted by TLSparks

Sounds like a good tool. So what would you use if you hit a container and have a significant leak/flooding 1000 miles off shore to get help? None of that ties into the GMDSS.

The InReach has a dedicated SOS function transmitting position and user info, once triggered it allows you to communicate with rescue services.

It also has easy sharing with Facebook and Twitter if you are into that. My family loves hearing from me and watching the map points.

There are some rules: neither Abu Dhabi or India allow it to operate in their harbors or govt buildings

[smac999]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Regarding HF DSC, there is an app called PersonalDSC for $79 that makes any HF radio DSC capable. You can go that route if you insist n DSC capabilities. However, HF DSC receive is a little useless for recreational boaters (if within 20 nm, you will hear them on VHF, if between 20 and 100 nm you will likely hear nothing on HF, if further away than 100 nm you will catch the transmission but you will be one day away, unlikely to be helpful). In any case, you can use the app above.

.

I never really get HF DSC. a boat 1000 miles away isn't coming to help you. and SSB has a min range I'm pretty sure as it needs to make the first atmosphere bounce. so boats nearby aren't going to get it anyways? what's the shortest call you can make on SSB?

hit the VHF DSC. boats within 40 miles will get it. those are the ones that can help you if there are any. and hit the epirb / plb / spot / delorne whatever and hope for a helicopter

[a64pilot]

I’m no radio expert, but I do not think HF has a min range, now due to propagation, SunSpots etc, certain frequencies work better during certain parts of the day and in different areas than others, but I see no reason why HF won’t do line of sight too.

Now as DSC is a digital signal, pretty sure it will “get out” when voice won’t. Don’t underestimate DSC’s importance in a Mayday situation.

[Nicor]

Originally Posted by smac999

I never really get HF DSC. a boat 1000 miles away isn't coming to help you. and SSB has a min range I'm pretty sure as it needs to make the first atmosphere bounce. so boats nearby aren't going to get it anyways? what's the shortest call you can make on SSB?

hit the VHF DSC. boats within 40 miles will get it. those are the ones that can help you if there are any. and hit the epirb / plb / spot / delorne whatever and hope for a helicopter

There is no set min/max range for either marine SSB or HAM SSB.
Ya'll talk like it two different 'things'.
Only two things different frequency and band width of the SSB signal.

The controlling factor is Sporadic E layer, weather ducting, magnetic storms, etc.

[TLSparks]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Regarding HF DSC, there is an app called PersonalDSC for $79 that makes any HF radio DSC capable. You can go that route if you insist n DSC capabilities. However, HF DSC receive is a little useless for recreational boaters (if within 20 nm, you will hear them on VHF, if between 20 and 100 nm you will likely hear nothing on HF, if further away than 100 nm you will catch the transmission but you will be one day away, unlikely to be helpful). In any case, you can use the app above.

If in trouble, I would much rather send an SMS and get immediate confirmation/ETA then let the rescue center coordinate the ships than manage it myself but again, the app gives your rescue center class DSC capability.

Lastly, regarding the social aspect, SMS allows you a direct gateway to Facebook and the other social apps. HF social nets get you access to, well a select group of people of a certain min age. I am not sure which approach is more social.

I do not know the app you are talking about, but it would have to control the radio to scan the appropriate frequencies as well as transmit on them. Being an engineer I would never say it is impossible, but connectivity would be difficult. If it only decodes a DSC message it is worthless.

Also you must not understand ground waves. They can go from 0 to as far as 150 miles with HF. The first skip zone is from the end of the ground wave to the first bounce. That is what I call close help. The bounces are like all the other help. The IMO says to get help in a distress situation, in order: DSC VHF, DSC HF, EPIRB, VHF, HF, Sat phone. The have done the research.

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by TLSparks

I do not know the app you are talking about, but it would have to control the radio to scan the appropriate frequencies as well as transmit on them. Being an engineer I would never say it is impossible, but connectivity would be difficult. If it only decodes a DSC message it is worthless.

Also you must not understand ground waves. They can go from 0 to as far as 150 miles with HF. The first skip zone is from the end of the ground wave to the first bounce. That is what I call close help. The bounces are like all the other help. The IMO says to get help in a distress situation, in order: DSC VHF, DSC HF, EPIRB, VHF, HF, Sat phone. The have done the research.

I love it when newbies go "I don't know the app... but if... it is worthless" or "ground waves _can_ go 0 to 150 miles with HF". All I can say is enjoy your HF.

For more open minded HF users, PersonalDSC is a low cost ITU-R M493 compliant app that allows you to send HF DSC out, either as distress or just to call your buddy across the ocean. You set the radio to scan the DSC channels (typically you only need to scan the 2-3 relevant ones, not all six) while on transmit you have to manually go through the transmit channels.

Ground waves can go a long way but typically they do not unless the conditions are good. So you may hear something 80 miles out or you may not hear it.

In any case, whether HF is a hobby or a safety tool, the key is to use it often, so that you get to learn about propagation and system reliability. You will learn the times of day when propagation is optimal in your part of the world, either for receiving weatherfax or for checking email or for talking to your buddies. DSC is great if you use it as a calling method for your buddies but there is another system, called PC-ALE that works even better.

SV Pizzazz

[TLSparks]

Originally Posted by Symphony

The InReach has a dedicated SOS function transmitting position and user info, once triggered it allows you to communicate with rescue services.

It also has easy sharing with Facebook and Twitter if you are into that. My family loves hearing from me and watching the map points.

There are some rules: neither Abu Dhabi or India allow it to operate in their harbors or govt buildings

Please Define Rescue Services. My Spot has an SOS and while it is a good feature it does not tie into GMDSS.

Good news in the next year or so Iridium and potential some other Sat phone systems will be allowed to tie directly into GMDSS. I do not believe any do at this time, but it would be interesting to find out what InReach calls Rescue Services. They could be ahead of the game.

[Eder]

Originally Posted by TLSparks

Sounds like a good tool. So what would you use if you hit a container and have a significant leak/flooding 1000 miles off shore to get help? None of that ties into the GMDSS.

You can use the SOS button on the Inreach to immediately establish 2 way communications c/w current gps coordinates with emergency rescue services. Its portable so take it with you to continue remediation of leaks


During an emergency, you can contact the GEOS International Emergency Rescue Coordination Center (IERCC) to request help. Pressing the SOS key sends a message to the rescue coordination center, and they notify the appropriate emergency responders of your situation.


Or you can activate your epirb but no 2 way comfort.

[TLSparks]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

I love it when newbies go "I don't know the app... but if... it is worthless" or "ground waves _can_ go 0 to 150 miles with HF". All I can say is enjoy your HF.

For more open minded HF users, PersonalDSC is a low cost ITU-R M493 compliant app that allows you to send HF DSC out, either as distress or just to call your buddy across the ocean. You set the radio to scan the DSC channels (typically you only need to scan the 2-3 relevant ones, not all six) while on transmit you have to manually go through the transmit channels.

Ground waves can go a long way but typically they do not unless the conditions are good. So you may hear something 80 miles out or you may not hear it.

In any case, whether HF is a hobby or a safety tool, the key is to use it often, so that you get to learn about propagation and system reliability. You will learn the times of day when propagation is optimal in your part of the world, either for receiving weatherfax or for checking email or for talking to your buddies. DSC is great if you use it as a calling method for your buddies but there is another system, called PC-ALE that works even better.

SV Pizzazz

With 50+ years in communications and several FCC licenses, I do not believe I am a "Newbie". Are the software programs I am not aware of, absolutely.

Now that you have identified the name of the software it can at least be looked at.
1. The advertisement states: "Works with marine SSB radios setup with audio interface." That makes more sense as it is illegal to modify a Ham radio for Marine frequencies.
2. At Amazon it is $89.
3. Using the software on an M710 would result in the radio scanning a set of frequencies. The international standard for the background receiver scans a 2, 4, 6, 8, 12, and 16 MHz safety frequencies. To call friends/ them calling you, the radio would have to scan at least a couple of other channels. Scanning 8 channels is and sitting on a channel long enough to detect the call, will result in missed calls. That is why the M802 uses two receivers instead of one.

With a brief look at PersonalDSC software, it appears you read about it and are not a user. If you are a user, you have never used real DSC.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by TLSparks

Please Define Rescue Services. My Spot has an SOS and while it is a good feature it does not tie into GMDSS.

Good news in the next year or so Iridium and potential some other Sat phone systems will be allowed to tie directly into GMDSS. I do not believe any do at this time, but it would be interesting to find out what InReach calls Rescue Services. They could be ahead of the game.

Currently they have there own call centres. And then call out the local people based on location. Which could be local sar, police, coast guard etc. I have set off a spot in Canada. And had a canadaian coast gaurd helicopter show up within 1.5h. And I have set off a Delorem in the usa and had a us navy helicopter show up within maybe 2 hours. Both were for injured people on land that needed evac.

[TLSparks]

Originally Posted by smac999

Currently they have there own call centres. And then call out the local people based on location. Which could be local sar, police, coast guard etc. I have set off a spot in Canada. And had a canadaian coast gaurd helicopter show up within 1.5h. And I have set off a Delorem in the usa and had a us navy helicopter show up within maybe 2 hours. Both were for injured people on land that needed evac.

Sounds like Spot may have improved. I have not used it in a couple of years and never used the SOS function. Last I used it it sent a message to a designated person. If that person got the message it might be handled.

I still prefer depending on direct connection with GMDSS via DSC, but it sounds like at least coastal sailing it serves the purpose. Thanks for the information. I try to learn something new every day.....

[a64pilot]

As an old bush pilot, I can tell you that spot, Garmin inreach etc are not emergency devices anymore than your home security system is.
Yes, they can contact people that should contact people that can help you, but for Gods sake don’t not buy an Epirb because you are relying on a SPOT. People calling people and relaying messages often make mistakes, transpose numbers and such.
First thing, set off the EPIRB, then play with your SPOT or Garmin inreach, can’t hurt and may help.