Class B AIS waste of money

[StuM]

Originally Posted by SV Enough

Military Sealift Command Electronics Technician. US Navy Nuke Machinist Mate 1st class, submariner, IBM & Raytheon R&D. I can change the exhaust valve on a Colt Pielstick 10PC4.2 V 570 and troubleshoot, repair and tune an APG-79 radar with the best of them.

QMED, Qualified member of the Engineering Department
AS-E, Able Seafarer Engineering

Still confused?

Yep, you didn't answer the question at all.
"what sort of ship with what sort of watchkeepers are junior engineers summoned to the bridge to sort out the ECDIS "


But I must admit, you have been one of the more successful trolls around here recently.

[DeepFrz]

Just realize that this thread was started by someone who has a "Class A Receiver".

[tdoster]

It is a Godsend running the ICW anywhere from Brownsville to NOLO and even into the GOM in that area. Can't count the number of times it has made meeting and passing tugs much safer than in the past, especially in the narrows to allow sufficient time for adequate cooperation between vessels.

In the event of a Collision or even an Allison with a parked or anchored vessel, fault is almost never 100% on either side. In this litigious world, we like to have as much on our side as possible. I have never had an issue avoiding a ships and the technology has made that far easier than the old days.

[hellosailor]

One guy turns on his VHF and monitors 16. The next guy turns it off because there's too much chatter. That makes it a total waste of money to have one? Because someone else can turn it off, or turn the volume down?

I knew a gentlemen who graduated Annapolis and eventually captained a destroyer. Running under radio silence at night everyone in the group was ordered to maintain position, and the next ship over kept creeping up on his quarter and ignoring the lamp signals to fall back. So he put a five inch starshell across their bridge.

Didn't have any problem getting and keeping their attention after that. Didn't need any radio at all. Obviously, a radio is not the first choice for getting another vessel's attention.

[SV Enough]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yep, you didn't answer the question at all.
"what sort of ship with what sort of watchkeepers are junior engineers summoned to the bridge to sort out the ECDIS "


But I must admit, you have been one of the more successful trolls around here recently.

Yes I did answer. Military Sealift Command. On US Naval Ships which supplies the US Navy with, bullets, beans, bombs, food, fuel and parts at sea underway world wide. And yes we do occasionally end up in the line of fire in war zones. I just got home from a 6 month deployment to the 5th fleet serving on an MSC TAO Kaiser class tanker. What bridge crews on 677 ft tankers have you had occasion to work with for a living?

And no, bridge crew haven't a clue about electronics much past the power button and the quick reference guide.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by SV Enough

Yes I did answer. Military Sealift Command. On US Naval Ships which supplies the US Navy with, bullets, beans, bombs, food, fuel and parts at sea underway world wide. And yes we do occasionally end up in the line of fire in war zones. I just got home from a 6 month deployment to the 5th fleet serving on an MSC TAO Kaiser class tanker. What bridge crews on 677 ft tankers have you had occasion to work with for a living?

And no, bridge crew haven't a clue about electronics much past the power button and the quick reference guide.

So when on deployment supporting the Navy, is the ship you serve on considered a commercial or a military vessel? Either way, why wouldn't your actions in insuring that Class B signals are excepted on the bridge be violative of the Colregs strictures to use all available means to avoid collision? This is assuming you are outside of busy harbors/ports where it may be understandably safer not to have a cluttered screen.

Outside of this exception, I am confused by your original post where you said:

I personally have been summoned to the bridge to SPECIFICALLY check Furuno/ECDIS radar settings and ensure that "except class B" is ON, meaning exclude them. For proof see

Class B AIS - Filtering Of Targets By Ships – gCaptain

Also, and has been stated, your "proof" is an article discussing turning Class B off in busy harbors. Did the article talk about insuring it remains off once in open water again?

[justwaiting]

Originally Posted by Olddave

Well you certainly copped some flak for coming out and admitting that you stick to the rules. I get where you are coming from but I don't do it. I change my course early so the ship can see what I have done. Also by making my course change early and obvious I am not breaking Colregs by changing course when I am the Stand-on Vessel. Ie well before a close quarters situation develops.
Ships are not in the habit of making 1 degree course changes either. Colregs and good practice require that the change be obvious to the other vessel. Also ships hold their course because they have come to expect small sailing vessels to give way when not required.
As far as the original question about the value of Class B AIS is concerned, I couldn't afford to put Class A on my 10m sailing boat. If I could, I would have purchased the Furuno FA150 because it is a pleasure to use. It does not beep audible alarms at you! I have a Vesper 850 WatchMate and it is OK except for the alarms. Alarms should be optional, it is very annoying having equipment yelling at you when you are attending to more urgent matters.
Dave

Yep - but it also shows 2 advantages of transmit in that a small heading / speed change is apparent to the other vessel and that it is easier for them to identify and contact if there is any uncertainty.

A previous poster also said that no commercial Captain (OIC) wants to be involved in any collision - more so when you are probably leaving an AIS track.

[CarinaPDX]

It may surprise many cruisers who do try to obey the letter and intent of the COLREGS that many merchant ships don't, but that is clearly the case. The only defense from a bridge crew that don't keep a proper watch and count on the radar or AIS guard zone/ARPA to warn them of potential collisions is to keep a proper watch oneself. Clearly these things do happen as the the OP reports - I just doubt that his experience is typical.

My experience mirrors others here: ships often contacted me out on the ocean, and those that didn't were miraculously passing a few miles away. IMHO this system is worth its weight in gold.

The thing about the OP's report (and similar reports of misuse of radar) that I find concerning is the lack of condemnation for the deck officers' misbehavior - assuming they were at sea at the time. Of course an engineering officer would be reluctant to tell a deck officer how to do his job, but that seems to have been needed.

And I agree with another comment: this thread seems to be more trolling and FUD than helpful.

Greg

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

......
The thing about the OP's report (and similar reports of misuse of radar) that I find concerning is the lack of condemnation for the deck officers' misbehavior - assuming they were at sea at the time. Of course an engineering officer would be reluctant to tell a deck officer how to do his job, but that seems to have been needed.......

Greg

Ahem...... 'AS-E, Able Seafarer Engineering '....
Greaser, wiper, or fireman in 'oldspeak'.....

[CarinaPDX]

Thanks for correction - I didn't mean to give him a promotion...

Greg

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by SV Enough

Yes I did answer. Military Sealift Command. On US Naval Ships which supplies the US Navy with, bullets, beans, bombs, food, fuel and parts at sea underway world wide. And yes we do occasionally end up in the line of fire in war zones. I just got home from a 6 month deployment to the 5th fleet serving on an MSC TAO Kaiser class tanker. What bridge crews on 677 ft tankers have you had occasion to work with for a living?

And no, bridge crew haven't a clue about electronics much past the power button and the quick reference guide.

Senior watchkeeper on a number of 700+ft plus ( 100k DWT mas o minos ) tankers and OBOs but that was some time ago.... mid 80's was the last...

The latter years in the day job were spent as master of tiddly 184 metre ships.

Allow an engine room rating on to the bridge let alone touch anything? I don't think so............

If what you say is indeed true it is a very sad reflection on the training standards and skill sets found on 'merkin ships.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Just realize that this thread was started by someone who has a "Class A Receiver".

Yep, this:
"I have a class A RECEIVER on S/V Enough as I don't want a Kobayashi Maru incident any more than any of you. It helps me know were they are so I can avoid them. It works just like the transponder except it doesn't clutter up anyone's radar screen except for the echo from my radar reflector."

tells us just how much the OP actually knows about AIS with all his vast Able Seaman's qualifications.

It's sure a pity that those Class B receivers can't receive data from ships using Class A!

And I'd sure like to know what magic makes a VHF AIS signal clutter up a "RADAR screen"!


Hint for OP: The secret to successful trolling is to know what you are talking about!

[SV Enough]

Originally Posted by Exile

So when on deployment supporting the Navy, is the ship you serve on considered a commercial or a military vessel? Either way, why wouldn't your actions in insuring that Class B signals are excepted on the bridge be violative of the Colregs strictures to use all available means to avoid collision? This is assuming you are outside of busy harbors/ports where it may be understandably safer not to have a cluttered screen.



Outside of this exception, I am confused by your original post where you said:



I personally have been summoned to the bridge to SPECIFICALLY check Furuno/ECDIS radar settings and ensure that "except class B" is ON, meaning exclude them. For proof see



Class B AIS - Filtering Of Targets By Ships – gCaptain



Also, and has been stated, your "proof" is an article discussing turning Class B off in busy harbors. Did the article talk about insuring it remains off once in open water again?

I am one of 2 ETs serving aboard most USNS vessels. If you are under the miss impression that any bridge crew are electronics technicians, you need to get your MMC and walk bridge deck plates. USNS ships are manned by CIVMARS, civilian mariners with US Merchant Marine Credentials as are all US flagged vessel commercial or otherwise. It goes downhill from there for foreign flagged vessels. If you think Liberian Merchant Marine Credentials meet the same level of rigor for competence as US MMC, I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. Good luck reading the Colregs, SOLAS, USCG, or any other documents in a Liberian admiralty courtroom over an AIS or any other maritime complaint.

For US Navy USS and its USNS vessels there is a letter of understanding with the USCG allowing them to secure their AIS transponders at will. The Master and or MOW (Mate on Watch) determine what is set or not set when or where on bridge instruments and to do that the ET IS CALLED.

And I repeat, what are your professional MMC qualifications and what deck plates in any capacity you have walked for a living? You really need to get a grip on how the real wold operates.

Mark Fay MMC Jr. Engineer QMED AS-E / MSC ET

[Exile]

Originally Posted by SV Enough

For US Navy USS and its USNS vessels there is a letter of understanding with the USCG allowing them to secure their AIS transponders at will. The Master and or MOW (Mate on Watch) determine what is set or not set when or where on bridge instruments and to do that the ET IS CALLED.

Mark Fay MMC Jr. Engineer QMED AS-E / MSC ET

Don't understand much of your post or why it's directed at me, but then I'm not that good with all those acronyms.

I did want to respond to your above comment about being allowed to turn off your AIS transponder. Makes sense not to want to broadcast your position if operating in a military support capacity, but I thought the point of your thread was that Class B transponders were pointless for recreational mariners because merchant ships filter them out. So I ask again, why would you (or your deck officers) not want to receive Class B signals in open water?

Wouldn't be the first time I missed something, so just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here . . . .

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yep, this:[I]
And I'd sure like to know what magic makes a VHF AIS signal clutter up a "RADAR screen"

Perhaps he was referring to an ECDIS combined chartplotter / radar display?

But yes, mentioning the Class-A receiver does raise some questions.

And commenting on another issue that has been raised here: being lectured to turn off our Class-B transmissions when in a busy harbor or in the slip.

I believe that this is a completely wrong-headed way to solve the problem. If I am in a slip then I am not in the way of a passing ship. They should adjust their display and alarms appropriately. If I am on the water and in the way, the ship should want to know about my being there. Or, should I haul down my radar reflector, and cover my boat in radar-stealth screening? How about my running lights? Should I turn those off so as not to distract the ship's watch?

The solution to AIS target-overload is proper AIS alarm processing and target filtering, and proper training of the bridge crew. If the display systems aren't adequately designed then they need to be improved. But I'm not going to turn off my AIS while we wait for this to happen.