Butt Connector vs Solder

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Exactly...someone smart enough to step back and laugh at all the internet "experts"..

We'll to that

[Reo Baird]

Originally Posted by Jbaffoh

Wrong! They're the same connectors!

Yes, you need to buy in quantity. $30 for an assortment of 200 3M tinned copper with double wall polyolefin adhesive lined heat shrink.

Or, you can go to West Marine and pay $5 for three Ancor connectors, which are sourced from manufacturers like 3M. I have both, and they're indistinguishable.

So we're not talking huge quantities or large expenditures. You just need to order the stuff 3 days in advance or stock up instead of walking into the closest chandlery at the last minute.

I wasn't arguing 3M vs ancor, I intended to point out that for the average joe (The guy who needs this advice) headed to the local store, they are more than $0.15. I didn't intend to imply that crimps are prohibitively expensive (i've got several thousand assorted heatshrinkable crimps in a case downstairs i paid little for at a wholesaler, and i use them regularly), if that is what you got from my post.

Cheap connector = ~$0.15 at the local walmart
Good connector with heatshrink = ~$1.00 at the local marine store

Of course they are cheap in bulk online, but those doing enough wiring to warrant making a bulk order won't (I should hope) accidentally buy the wrong crimps.

[Jbaffoh]

Originally Posted by Reo Baird

I wasn't arguing 3M vs ancor, I intended to point out that for the average joe (The guy who needs this advice) headed to the local store, they are more than $0.15. I didn't intend to imply that crimps are prohibitively expensive, if that is what you got from my post.

Cheap connector = ~$0.15 at the local walmart
Good connector with heatshrink = ~$1.00 at the local marine store

Of course they are cheap in bulk online, but those doing enough wiring to warrant making a bulk order won't (I should hope) accidentally buy the wrong crimps.

True.

I removed my distribution panel yesterday, and an AC neutral wire popped out of a cheesy nylon double crimp terminal that was single crimped with a cheesy dimple crimper. I don't use AC now--pending the installation of a new panel I built--but imagine if I were plugging into shore power! This is the third time an AC terminal came apart on this boat!

Wrong terminals, wrong tools, and wrong technique = danger. So do cold solder joints. This stuff is as easy as tying shoe laces--I don't understand why so many get it wrong so often.

[sabray]

I stick my wires in a close fitting copper pipe and beat the crap out of it with a fisherman anchor. Then i take a proper sized gun blow a hole through it. I smear it with Dino oil. When it's all said and done and my aluminum wire us snugly in place. I sigh if it's good enough for a hunter it's good enough for me. Bad Sabray.
Really I like a good crimping tool. But once used to solder and never had an issue that way either.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by Jbaffoh

True.

I removed my distribution panel yesterday, and an AC neutral wire popped out of a cheesy nylon double crimp terminal that was single crimped with a cheesy dimple crimper. I don't use AC now--pending the installation of a new panel I built--but imagine if I were plugging into shore power! This is the third time an AC terminal came apart on this boat!

Wrong terminals, wrong tools, and wrong technique = danger. So do cold solder joints. This stuff is as easy as tying shoe laces--I don't understand why so many get it wrong so often.

How do you feel about euro style terminal blocks with no crimping?

[Jbaffoh]

Originally Posted by psneeld

How do you feel about euro style terminal blocks with no crimping?

I don't know. I have a couple that I haven't used. I'm told they're chromed steel, so that can't be good. Screws grinding on stranded wire can't be good, so the ends need to be tinned. And without the joints being sealed, I would expect green copper after awhile. But I've never used them.

I just hope the buyer of my boat is less disgusted than I was--and I'm hoping my next boat brings less disgust than this one did--but it probably won't.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by psneeld

How do you feel about euro style terminal blocks with no crimping?

Originally Posted by Jbaffoh

I don't know. I have a couple that I haven't used. I'm told they're chromed steel, so that can't be good. Screws grinding on stranded wire can't be good, so the ends need to be tinned. And without the joints being sealed, I would expect green copper after awhile. But I've never used them.

I just hope the buyer of my boat is less disgusted than I was--and I'm hoping my next boat brings less disgust than this one did--but it probably won't.

FWIW,

I have used these off-shore a few times but always in a controlled (semi?) environment equipment room. I haven't checked the "chromed steel" aspect but I will next when back on the job (off-shore).

The wire should still be crimped in a "bootlace" ferrule (sp?) and then the ferrule is inserted and screwed down. The terminal is secure and they seem quite good but I prefer ring terminals .

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by Wotname

FWIW,

I have used these off-shore a few times but always in a controlled (semi?) environment equipment room. I haven't checked the "chromed steel" aspect but I will next when back on the job (off-shore).

The wire should still be crimped in a "bootlace" ferrule (sp?) and then the ferrule is inserted and screwed down. The terminal is secure and they seem quite good but I prefer ring terminals .

Does anyone know if one can still purchase that Euro-connector in long lengths, about a foot.
I sorted out the three hydraulic furling foresail assemblies on an 80 ft Holman and Pye, IIRC, and it involved scores of 18g wires to multi-spool
solenoid valves.
It was wired with lengths of strip, wires tinned and ferruled as described above.

[Lou452]

Originally Posted by Lou452

Ok I have just put new lights on the boat trailer. I thought about how to do it. picked a wire nut . Filled it full of silicon after and put tape over that The lights and wires get a bath every trip. I will let you know how long they last. I was going to solder and shrink rap or crimp I asked all kinds of EBEW men most said solder is the best conection but might not be the best aplication. One just has to take a chance and learn what works best for you ? The butt crimp has not worked the best for me (but) I have not used the best tools to crimp and I do it every 5 years? Regards LOU452

Lights still working 9/6/13

[wingless]

This reply shows how to do a soldered and strain relieved Western Union splice.

Note that it is "easy" to overheat the insulation and it is "easy" to apply excessive solder that wicks-up under the insulation.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by wingless

This reply shows how to do a soldered and strain relieved Western Union splice.

Note that it is "easy" to overheat the insulation and it is "easy" to apply excessive solder that wicks-up under the insulation.

The WU or Linemans splice was never intended for use fine stranded / multi-stranded wire. It is intended for single conductor wire.. It does not count as a "mechanical connection", at least under applicable safety standards such as ABYC E-11. This means any sharp surveyor may flag it in an insurance survey...

[wingless]

Originally Posted by wingless

This reply shows how to do a soldered and strain relieved Western Union splice.

Note that it is "easy" to overheat the insulation and it is "easy" to apply excessive solder that wicks-up under the insulation.

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

The WU or Linemans splice was never intended for use fine stranded / multi-stranded wire. It is intended for single conductor wire..

Correct, the Western Union splice was used back in the telegraph days on single-conductor wires.

Originally Posted by wingless

It does not count as a "mechanical connection", at least under applicable safety standards such as ABYC E-11. This means any sharp surveyor may flag it in an insurance survey...

The ABYC standards prohibit solder being used as "the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit".

The images in the link show how to use the wires and wire ties to provide the mechanical connection on a soldered splice, to make the connection shown fully ABYC-compliant.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by wingless

Correct, the Western Union splice was used back in the telegraph days on single-conductor wires.

The ABYC standards prohibit solder being used as "the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit".

The images in the link show how to use the wires and wire ties to provide the mechanical connection on a soldered splice, to make the connection shown fully ABYC-compliant.

And as I mentioned above the twisting of stranded wire does not count as a "mechanical connection" under ABYC standards. I have asked for "standards clarification" on this (I am an ABYC certified tech) and was told directly by the ABYC that no means of wire twisting, including Linemans or WU splices, count under ABYC E-11 as a "mechanical connection". I suppose if we used solid wire on boats it may count, but it does not with the finely stranded wire, we use on boats...

What you show is how to do it but it is not done to stranded wire and does not meet the definition of mechanical connection under E-11 which leaves the solder as the sole means of connection (according to the applicable safety standards)...

[wingless]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

What you show is how to do it but it is not done to stranded wire and does not meet the definition of mechanical connection under E-11 which leaves the solder as the sole means of connection (according to the applicable safety standards)...

Really?

If I were to put unattached wires together, as shown in the images, folded and wire tied as-shown, then used that assembly to support a suspended mass, say five pounds, then how is the missing splice the sole means of mechanical connection?

[Maine Sail]

Because under ABYC standards wire twisting does not count as a mechanical condition..