Boat internet system recommendations

[svmobert]

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I'm looking for some help with antenna selection for a Peplink MAX BR1 MK2.

The BR1 has connections for two cellular antennas. It looks like this is for MIMO and not diversity, and that MIMO is more important in an urban environment. On a boat, do I need to use both, and if so, does it matter how spread out they are? The cell antenna I am looking at is the Wilson Wide-Band 9.8" Marine Antenna with the 1" x 14 threaded mount.

Same questions for the two wifi antennas. I have a separate indoor wifi access point so I'm primarily using this for Wifi as WAN (even then very rarely does the shoreside wifi outperform our cell service).

Hi Brian,

In reality the two antenna connections is for both Diversity AND CA (Carrier Aggregation (which is like MIMO)... With an LTE-A modem there is a main and an aux port. Using a single carrier signal connected to a single cell, the modem can use two antennas for the download side of the connection, boosting both signal and performance (Diversity). In many cases the modem can also connect to a secondary cell on a different channel and "aggregate" the connections for higher performance. This secondary channel (CA function) also supports diversity across both antennas. So in high performance CA connection with two antennas connected you will see antenna gain figures for 4 links.. Primary main and aux, and Secondary main and aux.

In any case, two antennas is best possible, but not required of course. You must have a good signal to the main antenna port, the aux is optional. If you connect an antenna to only the aux port you may find you see a strong signal but you can't connect, because the primary uplink happens on the main port.

In selling and testing cell boosters and cell routers for boats I started with the Shakespeare Galaxy 5239 in our kits but have since switched to the Poynting OMNI 400, even though it's more expensive. It provides higher overall gain and in booster scenarios is less susceptible to oscilation. It has a standard 1"-14TPI threaded hole in the bottom for mounting and includes an L bracket AND rail mount parts, so it fits almost any mounting scenario. The higher performance of the OMNI 400 over the Galaxy was also noted by Luis Soltero, founder of Redport in his testing as well.

As a Poynting reseller I also have in-house, and have tested, the OMNI 402 MIMO antenna. It's overall gain per port is slighly lower than the 400, but seems to work well in any case. It's taller than the 400. I have an OMNI 402 here in inventory if interested. It has a short pigtail with SMA connectors pre-attached, so you could mount the Peplink close to the antenna for a short coax run, and then run ethernet or wifi back to the point of use inside the boat.

If you have to run cable any amount of distance (ie: 30ft or more) then I suggest LMR400. While it is similar in size to the RG213 it has ~50% of the signal loss at the same distance compared with RG213. LMR400 has a larger gauge solid conductor vs RG213's stranded core, so LMR is stiffer, but signal loss is a major factor in getting high performance from cellular and wifi antennas. At 75ft cable length (sailboat masthead for example) the signal loss of RG213 is greater than the OMNI400 antenna gain. LMR-400 on the otherhand has less loss and hence you will actually have some appreciable gain at the cellular device ports.

Just some things to think about as you plan. At cellular/wifi frequencies, LMR is the recommended cable type, while RG213 is very good for HF/VHF.

[Boater3]

i wish poynting made a mimo wifi dual band omni with the 1x14 threads

[Brian Pokosh]

Originally Posted by Sea-TechSystems

As a Poynting reseller I also have in-house, and have tested, the OMNI 402 MIMO antenna. It's overall gain per port is slighly lower than the 400, but seems to work well in any case. It's taller than the 400. I have an OMNI 402 here in inventory if interested. It has a short pigtail with SMA connectors pre-attached, so you could mount the Peplink close to the antenna for a short coax run, and then run ethernet or wifi back to the point of use inside the boat.

I have two 1" x 14 threaded posts available, so the OMNI 402 MIMO antenna would be ideal for cellular leaving the second post available for wifi (and like mentioned above, too bad Poynting doesn't make a MIMO wifi antenna). Do you think that loss in gain on the 402 will be noticeable? My priority is cellular so if it's worth it I'd rather use both posts for OMNI-400s and find a new spot for wifi antennas down the road.

[Pelagic]

I've ordered this with, 15m cable (maximum recomended) to put on the upper spreader at 11m on mast or 14m above waterline.

Adjacent Feadship beside me is doing same but with booster.
I will compare mine with theirs before deciding on booster

Arrives next week

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I've ordered this with, 15m cable (maximum recomended) to put on the upper spreader at 11m on mast or 14m above waterline.

Adjacent Feadship beside me is doing same but with booster.
I will compare mine with theirs before deciding on booster

Arrives next weekAttachment 204624Attachment 204625

make / model / link?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by mystery

make / model / link?

The make/model is on the photo label
Sorry don't have a link, is being supplied from my IT guy, via this IT guy.
https://seabits.com/best-boat-internet-systems/

[notz]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

via this IT guy.
https://seabits.com/best-boat-internet-systems/
Attachment 204696

Well, that's me, and I've never seen this particular antenna.... Looks like a Delphi?

[notz]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I've ordered this with, 15m cable (maximum recomended) to put on the upper spreader at 11m on mast or 14m above waterline.

Adjacent Feadship beside me is doing same but with booster.
I will compare mine with theirs before deciding on booster

Arrives next weekAttachment 204624Attachment 204625

Looks like the manufacturer is Delphi, listed as:

Mobile Bus-Train Roaming High Speed...
Frequency: 685-2950Mhz
Model: Delphi685-2950-17
Gain: 17dBi

I did some cursory searches but couldn't find much info on it. The 17dBi gain makes me think this is for something else, or perhaps labelled incorrectly, since that is an amazing amount....

[SweareDeep]

Based on some of the discussion in this thread, I replaced my Cradlepoint 170654-001 Low Profile 5-in-1 antenna with a Poynting OMIN 400. The improvement in performance is tremendous -- just in time for the new normal of Zoom calls from the boat. So, thanks to everyone for their contributions to the thread.

My set up is OMNI 400 -> Pepwave BR1 with ip pass-through -> GLi.net Slate. The BR1 is separately switched so I can turn it off when offshore with the Slate set to do DHCP, routing, Wifi, etc. The BR1 is installed close to the antenna which probably helps too, with a longer CAT 5 feed to the Slate.

[notz]

Originally Posted by SweareDeep

Based on some of the discussion in this thread, I replaced my Cradlepoint 170654-001 Low Profile 5-in-1 antenna with a Poynting OMIN 400. The improvement in performance is tremendous -- just in time for the new normal of Zoom calls from the boat. So, thanks to everyone for their contributions to the thread.

My set up is OMNI 400 -> Pepwave BR1 with ip pass-through -> GLi.net Slate. The BR1 is separately switched so I can turn it off when offshore with the Slate set to do DHCP, routing, Wifi, etc. The BR1 is installed close to the antenna which probably helps too, with a longer CAT 5 feed to the Slate.

The OMNI-400 is my favorite single element antenna, and has blown away anything else I've ever tested. The OMNI-402 is great for dual radio or diversity needs, and the OMNI-496 is also really impressing me for WiFi, in particular 5Ghz.

Glad you found the 400!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by mystery

Alright so I've made some progress in selecting hardware...

Probably going with a Mikrotek "bullet" style high power 2.4/5ghz for WiFi and a Cradlepoint or Sierra or similar LTE radio/modem device. I would've loved to use Ubiquiti's bullet but it seems they have locked them to Airmax and they can no longer be used in bridge mode.

Hopefully using a single antenna for cellular and a second single antenna for WiFi will be sufficient. The other solution would've involved dual antennas for each and I'd rather not have to install four antennas and mounts not just because of expense but because of how it would look.

Using these "remote" style radio/modem units, I will probably run ethernet to the engine room, install the POE injectors there (unless a bad idea??), and then ethernet from there up to the cabin. I still need to confirm I can mount these units close enough to the base of the mast so I only use 10-15 feet of antenna wire. I have to go visit the boat next week to see if I can get access to a seat area next to the mast from the base of the mast. I would install an enclosure to hold the radio/modem units. Those of you that have Wirie's, were the enclosures (I believe they were pelican cases) vented at all? I need to figure out an enclosure that wouldn't cause the units to overheat all while keeping them protected. I could install the Mikrotik right at the antenna outside but that exposes it to the elements. Another option is to just secure the enclosure/pelican case to the mast somehow and have a much shorter run form the antennas (i.e. a few feet).

Any special type of ethernet that would have to be used? I am most concerned about potential interference from other nearby antenna and power leads and that the wires would be carrying DC for POE.

Also it looks like for lightening protection, there needs to be a ground, for both the antenna and ethernet "surge" protectors. I am guessing there is no way to do that on a boat?

The final major hardware selection will be picking a router that can handle the dual WANs. I was thinking something from Peplink if OpenWRT cannot do it on a Asus 68u or similar. I am hoping to keep this to one piece of hardware, so the LAN router and Wireless were one unit for ease of powering via DC.

The best thing to do in my view is to go for a much less complicated and expensive system and instead go for a minimum system which accomplishes most of your objectives without too much cost or complexity.

We use two devices for Internet:

• Cellular Telephone USB modem
• WiFi extender antenna

We use software on the PC to automatically switch between the two devices, and if both are online, it combines them for better speed. This software is called "Connectify"

Both devices plug directly into the PC via USB connections. No router, no ethernet, no POE, no external power required on deck. Both have 15 foot USB cables so they can reach out of the cabin to the deck level. Connectify recognizes both devices without any significant set up.

Connectify then turns on the PC's own Wi-Fi to create a hotspot for other devices in the boat (and incidentally, other nearby boats if I want to give them the password).

We have had a few USB Modems for various cellular bands in different countries, and we buy sim cards and data packages. Currently in Mexico we use a Telcel USB modem and Telcel coverage. In the Caribbean we primarily used Digicel. Cell phone signals should not be affected by the tide level, only a wifi hotspot from shore would usually have that issue. Our cellular modem is on a cable hanging inside the dodger but it works fine in the cabin.

The WiFi extender we use is an inexpensive Bear Outdoor Extender ($56) which is a flat, directional, antenna. It has an extraordinary reach, often over 1/2 mile. HOWEVER, it is directional. That is fine in a marina but at anchor you have to go on deck and point it to the AP a few times a day.

One thing I will caution you on. Friends of mine have not had good luck getting wifi in the marina with onmi-directional antennas, such as the bullet, even though the signal is strong. The one guy who could get good wifi, even out at the end of the dock, was using a Ubiguiti directional set-up. My theory is that the signals reflect off of the nearby sailboat masts and it makes the reception difficult with omni antennas. Our directional antenna, similar to the Ubiguiti, does not have that problem.

As with everything we do on our boat we look for simple solutions which give us the most bang for the buck (80/20 rule).

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by SweareDeep

Based on some of the discussion in this thread, I replaced my Cradlepoint 170654-001 Low Profile 5-in-1 antenna with a Poynting OMIN 400. The improvement in performance is tremendous -- just in time for the new normal of Zoom calls from the boat. So, thanks to everyone for their contributions to the thread.

My set up is OMNI 400 -> Pepwave BR1 with ip pass-through -> GLi.net Slate. The BR1 is separately switched so I can turn it off when offshore with the Slate set to do DHCP, routing, Wifi, etc. The BR1 is installed close to the antenna which probably helps too, with a longer CAT 5 feed to the Slate.

What purpose does the Slate serve? I am confused why you wouldn't use the BR1 for everything?

[SweareDeep]

Originally Posted by mystery

What purpose does the Slate serve? I am confused why you wouldn't use the BR1 for everything?

Two reasons:

First, so I can turn off the BR1 when far from cellular coverage to save power. I find the BR1, perhaps in common with other cellular devices, seems to be power hungry when seeking a signal — I don’t need that power consumption for, at times, days on end.

Second, so I can install the BR1 close to the antenna to minimize signal loss while having Wi-Fi coverage to the boat provided by the Slate in the center of the main cabin.

[slug]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The best thing to do in my view is to go for a much less complicated and expensive system and instead go for a minimum system which accomplishes most of your objectives without too much cost or complexity.

We use two devices for Internet:

• Cellular Telephone USB modem
• WiFi extender antenna

We use software on the PC to automatically switch between the two devices, and if both are online, it combines them for better speed. This software is called "Connectify"

Both devices plug directly into the PC via USB connections. No router, no ethernet, no POE, no external power required on deck. Both have 15 foot USB cables so they can reach out of the cabin to the deck level. Connectify recognizes both devices without any significant set up.

Connectify then turns on the PC's own Wi-Fi to create a hotspot for other devices in the boat (and incidentally, other nearby boats if I want to give them the password).

We have had a few USB Modems for various cellular bands in different countries, and we buy sim cards and data packages. Currently in Mexico we use a Telcel USB modem and Telcel coverage. In the Caribbean we primarily used Digicel. Cell phone signals should not be affected by the tide level, only a wifi hotspot from shore would usually have that issue. Our cellular modem is on a cable hanging inside the dodger but it works fine in the cabin.

The WiFi extender we use is an inexpensive Bear Outdoor Extender ($56) which is a flat, directional, antenna. It has an extraordinary reach, often over 1/2 mile. HOWEVER, it is directional. That is fine in a marina but at anchor you have to go on deck and point it to the AP a few times a day.

One thing I will caution you on. Friends of mine have not had good luck getting wifi in the marina with onmi-directional antennas, such as the bullet, even though the signal is strong. The one guy who could get good wifi, even out at the end of the dock, was using a Ubiguiti directional set-up. My theory is that the signals reflect off of the nearby sailboat masts and it makes the reception difficult with omni antennas. Our directional antenna, similar to the Ubiguiti, does not have that problem.

As with everything we do on our boat we look for simple solutions which give us the most bang for the buck (80/20 rule).

Yah , I also use the simple USB stick and a long cable

I double side tape the usb stick inside a two meter piece of pvc pipe, then put a Pvc pipe cap on the top to make water proof

The pvc stick is mobile .. cable tied to the dodger when sailing or cable tied to a stanchion when at anchor

Works pretty good

What is the maximum permitted length for the usb cable ?

[StephenF]

Dear mystery,

I will try to answer some of your questions, specifically regarding the antenna systems (I am from Poynting Antennas).

Originally Posted by mystery

I primarily use a cellular hotspot but there are some areas that it does not work and some areas where it does work during high tide but not during low tide when the boat is sitting 6-9 feet lower than it sits at high tide. In some of the areas where there is cellular limitations, there are outdoor hotspots available which I can get access to.

You are welcome to private message me on this topic, I would like to get some more information from you to understand the issue. A part of this can be resolved with the correct antennas, the correct placement of antennas, etc.

Making use of a multi network router will also improve your chances of receiving a good signal, especially the routers that are able to seamlessly combine different LTE/5G networks and WiFi networks.

Originally Posted by mystery

I plan to mount an external omnidirectional antenna each for cellular and wifi outside. Another limitation is running cable from the antenna into the cabin would require 40-50 feet of cable which my understanding would degrade signal. I can possibly install the equipment outside at the base of the mast or under a seat that would lower that length down to 10-15 feet and any power/POE/ethernet runs could make up the remaining 35-40 feet.

Good point! Yes, it is most important to keep the coaxial cable between the router and the antenna either as short as possible or the best possible quality cable to reduce the signal losses (or better if you can do both).

For the 40-50 feet installation, we recommend using coax cable like LMR400 or better, which has a loss of about 4 to 10dB per 100 feet, so 50 feet will have an impact of around 2 to 5dB, which is not too bad, but can be better if you reduce the length.

For 10 - 15 feet, the cable loss is only 0.6 to 1.5dB... Keeping in mind that every 3dB loss equates to a loss of half of the power received.

The better cable, and shorter distance, together with a high grade antenna would be my recommendation.

Originally Posted by mystery

Another concern I have is using just one antenna for cellular and one for WiFi. I see some routers consider the second cellular Aux/Diversity and many routers have multiple connections for the WiFi. Would I experience any major issues wither with signal or frying the radios if using only 1 of the 2 jacks for the external antennas and leaving the others open? I am looking at LTE/LTE-A Cat 6 modems. There does not seem to be any Band 14 support on anything that I have seen. I do see some mini routers/wifi radios that have a single antenna jack that I can consider for the wifi.

Good quality routers have protection circuitry for when you only connect the one port, however, that is not always guaranteed and leaves you open to static issues, secondary lightning issues, etc. Best practice is to rather terminate that port with a 50 Ohm terminating connector or just install another (even a cheaper) antenna, which in effect terminates the port.

It is advised to rather make use of that port if possible and connect two similar antennas. It will help for diversity (and possibly some MIMO benefits). Diversity helps to improve the situations were you may be in an RF 'null' due to fading. This is a whole topic on its own..