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DotDun · 22-01-2015, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Yes you can still get it like that, but no more stuff will have it...And Navico are promoting the B&G side for sailboats....
The AP24 is just a control head, I doubt they will re-engineer it for micro c. It is not used in the current B&G system.
The primary website is, as I understand it, going to get a major revamp.

Dont' understand, you're implying there are (2) model of AP24? One with Simnet and a different one with MicroC???

Neptune's Gear · 22-01-2015, 15:24

Nope. Just Simnet. I'm saying all the new stuff has/will have Micro C. The AP24 has been around for more than 5 years, and is likely to be replaced by a new unit with micro c. I don't know that for sure, just one of the Navico developers told me that all the new stuff coming up is micro c....

DotDun · 22-01-2015, 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Nope. Just Simnet. I'm saying all the new stuff has/will have Micro C. The AP24 has been around for more than 5 years, and is likely to be replaced by a new unit with micro c. I don't know that for sure, just one of the Navico developers told me that all the new stuff coming up is micro c....

Thanks.

I cautious with Simrad as I've been burnt before by lack of compatibility within their own product line (not support mix/match of old and new equipment).

colemj · 22-01-2015, 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

My experience is all the major APs have enough functions for the average sailor and cruiser

"Functions" are one thing - and I strongly disagree that all major AP's are equivalent here (the two examples I gave are very useful and not found on others). But the steering and adaptive algorithms are more important - and these are definitely different among the manufacturers.

Mark

colemj · 22-01-2015, 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Nope. Just Simnet. I'm saying all the new stuff has/will have Micro C. The AP24 has been around for more than 5 years, and is likely to be replaced by a new unit with micro c. I don't know that for sure, just one of the Navico developers told me that all the new stuff coming up is micro c....

Yes, the AP24 is the only thing left with simnet connector on the back, but it ships with a simnet-microC cable, so this really isn't a problem (at least ours did 3 years ago - I don't know what ships now).

The AP24 is really long in the tooth. I hate looking at it next to the Tritons, and its night visibility is horrible. I expected this to be updated by now, and still think it will be soon. Maybe it will go to a Triton-type or the H5000 type?

Mark

Sandero · 22-01-2015, 19:19

All I can say is I have had an Alpha 3000 which about 28yrs and only had a couple of problems... I had to replace the drive and then I upgraded the processor in the control head, The boat is 16,000# and 36' and done tens of thousands coast of offshore with the Alpha. It will not take steering info from a GPS. YOU have to be the interface! But it has a dial which I find preferable to punching 1s and 10s... I can literally sit on the coaming with my hand down on the steering knob and watch and steer... I don't have to take my eyes off of the sea/surroundings to find the button and press it. A remote with buttons might work... but this dial is like a mini helm... very intuitive. I love it! The service is good.

colemj · 22-01-2015, 19:31

Pretty much all AP vendors offer control heads with a steering knob/dial, if that is your preference. All of them allow one to be the sole manual steering interface, if that is your preference. All of them allow one to mount them so that one needs to sit out on a coaming while reaching down to the cockpit wall, if that is your preference.

The difference is all of the rest allow other choices too.

Mark

Cap Erict3 · 22-01-2015, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M

I have been talking to a professional installer recently who has installed and serviced well over 1000 auto pilot units of all brands. I am in the process of replacing my autopilot as well. In his opinion it is in this order: Simrad, Furuno.....last Raymarine.

Just throwing this out here, I serviced commercial vessel steering systems since the 70s and Sperry both invented the autopilot and still leads the industry.

I use one of their rudder feedback units.

If indeed you want to buy first class. Bring a fat wallet.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/...a9#/223490a9/4

goboatingnow · 23-01-2015, 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by colemj

"Functions" are one thing - and I strongly disagree that all major AP's are equivalent here (the two examples I gave are very useful and not found on others). But the steering and adaptive algorithms are more important - and these are definitely different among the manufacturers.

Mark

Well, having sailed boats with all of the 4 major player APs over the years, I personally find most people just sail to compass or sail to next waypoint. Few do route following. Personally all I do is drop waypoints ahead and sail to them. watching others sail, very few use APs in any sophisticated way.

As to adaptive steering, etc. The biggest improvement has been integrated rate gyros, and Raymarine led the way here. Their downwind stability is very good.

Simrads AP is getting very long in tooth now, and really needs a refresh,( especially the small control head) I would agree with a previous poster that Rays auto config is very good and the adaptable learning isn't half bad,

Furunos in my experience, is an extremely good motorboat/workboat unit as that is its heritage, my experience is limited to 2 sails with their APs, I could see nothing that suggested their performance was above average.

Garmins one has improved, with various software upgrades, I haven't sailed enough of the sailboat fitted ones to comment yet.

I think its a very subjective issue, AP performance, so much is influenced by choice of actuator,mechanical installation, boat setup, sailing conditions and so on, for people to accurately make a real comparison.

My own experience is all of them are " adequate" for the average cruiser , the rest is personal preference or bias whichever you have.

Dave

robert sailor · 23-01-2015, 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Well, having sailed boats with all of the 4 major player APs over the years, I personally find most people just sail to compass or sail to next waypoint. Few do route following. Personally all I do is drop waypoints ahead and sail to them. watching others sail, very few use APs in any sophisticated way.

As to adaptive steering, etc. The biggest improvement has been integrated rate gyros, and Raymarine led the way here. Their downwind stability is very good.

Simrads AP is getting very long in tooth now, and really needs a refresh,( especially the small control head) I would agree with a previous poster that Rays auto config is very good and the adaptable learning isn't half bad,

Furunos in my experience, is an extremely good motorboat/workboat unit as that is its heritage, my experience is limited to 2 sails with their APs, I could see nothing that suggested their performance was above average.

Garmins one has improved, with various software upgrades, I haven't sailed enough of the sailboat fitted ones to comment yet.

I think its a very subjective issue, AP performance, so much is influenced by choice of actuator,mechanical installation, boat setup, sailing conditions and so on, for people to accurately make a real comparison.

My own experience is all of them are " adequate" for the average cruiser , the rest is personal preference or bias whichever you have.

Dave

One thing I do agree with is how we use our pilot..almost like a wind vane. Like you we steer to the next waypoint but I don't bother using anything but the basic compass as I like to adjust drift etc just by eye balling it, stupid I guess but I've just gotten used to doing it this way, gives me a better sense as to what's going on.

Sandero · 23-01-2015, 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

One thing I do agree with is how we use our pilot..almost like a wind vane. Like you we steer to the next waypoint but I don't bother using anything but the basic compass as I like to adjust drift etc just by eye balling it, stupid I guess but I've just gotten used to doing it this way, gives me a better sense as to what's going on.

This is how I do things and never understood using a GPS or MDF processor to make navigation/sailing decisions for you... Routes are not only for power boats which don't deal with the wind...

It's really no big deal to program a waypoint... get the bearing info and adjust your steering... manual or AP to make the mark... adjust it for wind and sea conditions which YOU are supposed to observe... not a GPS above.

I have limited experience with other APs and their interfaces... But the ones I did...AutoHelms I thought were awful +1, +10 things. AP may be improved these days as I would expect... It's simply too expensive to upgrade and if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Paul L · 23-01-2015, 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think the majority of issues are around the drive units in APs. The linear drive unit in the lower end Ray systems are often used in situations adhere they are close to the operating envelope. You can see this sometimes in the wear on these units.

Moving to hydraulic pump & ram , turns APs like Raymarine up a notch. In practice if you look at the electronics , there is very little difference in Furunos leisure range and say Raymarine. Merely cause loads of workboats have them, is more a function of the strategic decisions furuno took to build relationships with local agents and service companies, because commercial users have different needs and will pay for that service.

In reality, all these systems have electronics built to a price.

Dave

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree that the drive unit is the key for reliability on most boats. I had Ray AP computer(s) on my last boat with a Ray/Autohelm type 1 linear drive. The drive unit was was very reliable. I went through 3 Ray computers in 7 years of use. After that experience I shied away from Ray. While the basic electronics might be of similar quality on most of the AP computers, the little stuff like strain relief on all the cables is actually pretty different: The Ray units were decent, the Furuno was excellent and the Simrad I installed was poor in this regard. If you compare the rudder sensor on a Furuno to the rudder sensor on Ray and it is day and night in its quality. One is thin plastic, the other is a metal and solid.

**Dockhead** · 23-01-2015, 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

One thing I do agree with is how we use our pilot..almost like a wind vane. Like you we steer to the next waypoint but I don't bother using anything but the basic compass as I like to adjust drift etc just by eye balling it, stupid I guess but I've just gotten used to doing it this way, gives me a better sense as to what's going on.

Don't you guys use wind following mode? I use it almost exclusively sailing hard on the wind or DDW. Used it with the old Ray pilot and just as much with the new B&G pilot. It's the t*ts for this.

I use all the pilot modes, actually, except wind-nav mode, which I haven't figured out, and I use the tacking function to tack as well.

Garrettw · 23-01-2015, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Don't you guys use wind following mode? I use it almost exclusively sailing hard on the wind or DDW. Used it with the old Ray pilot and just as much with the new B&G pilot. It's the t*ts for this.

I use all the pilot modes, actually, except wind-nav mode, which I haven't figured out, and I use the tacking function to tack as well.

The WindNav mode is neat and is one of the biggest things I miss from having Simrad. There's not much to it: