Autopilot

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by colemj

I wasn't suggesting mixing control heads. I was just correcting the information that stated the AP and CP had to be of the same vendor. This is only necessary if one wants to control the AP from the CP instead of from the control head. The control head and computer need to be of the same basic vendor (all Navico products - B&G, Simrad, Lowrance - are interchangeable), but all other parts can be mixed and matched without problem because their outputs are standardized protocols.



Things may have changed, but up to very recently, RM used a proprietary extension for their AP control. People were having fits trying to control and communicate with them through PC charting programs. However, I don't follow this much.



One thing very much against Raymarine is their doggedly stupid adherence to using proprietary connectors. They are alone in this, I believe.



Mark

One of the problems is that NMEA should have insisted on standard network connectors , they didn't and there are several incompatible types now in the marine space.

It has been possible to connect Raymarine and before the Autohelm , APs to other devices since forever. There is additional proprietary commands , but this is true of other makes as well

You can interconnect Ray in exactly the same way as simrad, with exactly the same level of functionality ( mainly limited to waypoints transfers and route setting etc ) . The proprietary extensions to RAy are the same as other manufacturers.

Personally for a leisure , there is little real difference between the major players. I find raymarines support very good in Europe as I can talk to the factory , I find Garmin good too, very reliable ( mind you my radar has just acted up )

Futuna is very rare on < 50 foot leisure yachts , of all the boats I've sailed only two had furuno. ( one failed ! ) , good support, especially from the country agents, who make a living from servicing commercial vessels

I don't think the OP will go wrong with choosing any one of them

Dave


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[DotDun]

Originally Posted by colemj

.... The control head and computer need to be of the same basic vendor (all Navico products - B&G, Simrad, Lowrance - are interchangeable), but all other parts can be mixed and matched without problem because their outputs are standardized protocols.

So, the Simrad AC42 can be controlled by the B&G H5000??? Calibration and all?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by DotDun

So, the Simrad AC42 can be controlled by the B&G H5000??? Calibration and all?

We control ours through a B&G Triton. The B&G Zeus will also control the Simrad AC42.

The H5000 is brand new, so I don't know anything about the AP controller specifically.

Calibration is part of the CPU, not the controller, so as long as the controller can tell the CPU to calibrate, then there won't be an issue.

Mark

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by colemj

We control ours through a B&G Triton. The B&G Zeus will also control the Simrad AC42.

The H5000 is brand new, so I don't know anything about the AP controller specifically.

Calibration is part of the CPU, not the controller, so as long as the controller can tell the CPU to calibrate, then there won't be an issue.

Mark

So the Triton has pilot control or you use the add-on push button thingy???

It's not clear on their website. The boat show">Miami Boat Show is approaching and I'll be looking/comparing/dreaming....

[colemj]

No, the T41 display does not have complete control - you need the pad in your picture for that.

The T41 display can calibrate and setup the AP without the pad. The pad is used for Auto/Stdby and dodge buttons.

The pad can operate the AP by itself without a display.

Once the AP is engaged, the T41 display shows all of the usual AP data and graphics stuff on it.

Mark

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Furuno is lunatic money for an AP that's not neither mainstream or optimised for sailing IMHO.

Looking around my marina , I know raymarine is very common Simrad less so, and a few Garmin , personally I have found raymarine to be a reasonable and robust AP. I like Simrad as they have lots of linear arm options.

Dave


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A Furuno AP runs about us$2,500 in the US. I use one to control my L&S hydraulic drive. An AP for an offshore cruising boat should be commercial quality if you don't have a windvane backup IMHO. Ray makes a decent recreational quality unit.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Paul L

A Furuno AP runs about us$2,500 in the US. I use one to control my L&S hydraulic drive. An AP for an offshore cruising boat should be commercial quality if you don't have a windvane backup IMHO. Ray makes a decent recreational quality unit.

I think the majority of issues are around the drive units in APs. The linear drive unit in the lower end Ray systems are often used in situations adhere they are close to the operating envelope. You can see this sometimes in the wear on these units.

Moving to hydraulic pump & ram , turns APs like Raymarine up a notch. In practice if you look at the electronics , there is very little difference in Furunos leisure range and say Raymarine. Merely cause loads of workboats have them, is more a function of the strategic decisions furuno took to build relationships with local agents and service companies, because commercial users have different needs and will pay for that service.

In reality, all these systems have electronics built to a price.

Dave


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[colemj]

Originally Posted by Paul L

An AP for an offshore cruising boat should be commercial quality if you don't have a windvane backup IMHO.

I doubt there is anything "commercial quality" about a Furuno AP CPU and head unit. The drive unit is typically the deciding factor on ruggedness and reliability.

Most sailboats would benefit more by taking the money Furuno charges for their AP CPU system and putting it in B&G or NKE instead. Those CPU's truly do have specific sailboat performance advantages. You won't see any Furuno AP's on racing boats.

I do agree that Raymarine is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for AP's. Just dealing with their stupid connectors and interfacing is bad enough.

Mark

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by colemj

I doubt there is anything "commercial quality" about a Furuno AP CPU and head unit. The drive unit is typically the deciding factor on ruggedness and reliability.



Most sailboats would benefit more by taking the money Furuno charges for their AP CPU system and putting it in B&G or NKE instead. Those CPU's truly do have specific sailboat performance advantages. You won't see any Furuno AP's on racing boats.

We both agree , about the drive being the key.. NKE and b&G all produce very high end systems for these race boats. Really there's little in common with what we use

I do agree that Raymarine is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for AP's. Just dealing with their stupid connectors and interfacing is bad enough.



Mark

I'm no fan of any of the major leisure electronics. I can professionally see where the corners have been cut.

But I don't think Raymarine units are any better or worse overall. I've crossed oceans with them and they worked flawlessly.

As for the connectors , thats a common issue across many marine systems. As for interfacing they have been using 0183 for years , in fact their APs were always the easiest to interface in my experience to other chart plotters.

One only has to read of the trials and tribulations of the Simrad networking to realise that all these systems have issues , especially as the overall complexity rises. These days nearly all the failure modes are software related

Dave



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[colemj]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

One only has to read of the trials and tribulations of the Simrad networking to realise that all these systems have issues

Simrad moved over to all standard micro-c connectors a while ago. Robnet is long gone and they have been N2K since. I don't know of anyone except Raymarine who is not using micro-c connectors.

While B&G and NKE provide custom AP software for specific race boats, their more common AP's also contain much of the steering and adaptation algorithms developed from their racing experiences.

Control and steering software is a major distinction among the AP vendors. Our Simrad AP can steer so as to optimize VMG, for example. It can also steer a compass course while adjusting for drift and set.

Mark

[goboatingnow]

My experience is all the major APs have enough functions for the average sailor and cruiser


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[DotDun]

Originally Posted by colemj

Simrad moved over to all standard micro-c connectors a while ago. Robnet is long gone and they have been N2K since. I don't know of anyone except Raymarine who is not using micro-c connectors.

So Simnet is gone??? All the installation manuals still show the Simnet connectors and t-joiners.

Hmm, something else to look for at Miami...

[Neptune's Gear]

Ok, first I'll admit my bias. I've done over 40,000 miles with Simrad gear, and now that I'm home I've become a dealer for B&G. I would not have, if I did not like it.

Yes, Simnet is gone, all now micro C .

The B&G trident stuff (AP Computer, Compass, Rudder sensor) is the Simrad stuff that has been around for a bit, just re-badged and with a new controller and updated software. Still good though.
However, if you are considering this, for some reason the manuals for the drive units (esp the RPU hydraulic pumps) only give you the likely working currents - not the MAX. The AC12 can quite easily be overpowered in rough conditions or strong winds by some of the drive units, and the AP will switch off. I'd suggest the high current AP Computer (AC42) for most offshore boats, so you can avoid this. Other than that, they are great pilots, but make sure your actuator is up to the task - I prefer hydraulic.

In fact, on my own boat, (40ft Mono, fin keeler) I designed my own ram and had it made to fit the space available. Hydraulic units are the most reliable in my experience - that is why they are used in heavy industry. Make sure the electric pump for it is mounted in a dry area, the right spec, and carry a spare set of bearings and brushes if you are off RTW!
I'm off to learn some more about the new h5000 stuff next week, so I hope to be able to give a comparison after that.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

Ok, first I'll admit my bias. I've done over 40,000 miles with Simrad gear, and now that I'm home I've become a dealer for B&G. I would not have, if I did not like it.

Yes, Simnet is gone, all now micro C .

Hmm, they should update the website...the AP24 still has Simnet connectors in the picture, installation manual, and the spec sheet.

[Neptune's Gear]

Yes you can still get it like that, but no more stuff will have it...And Navico are promoting the B&G side for sailboats....
The AP24 is just a control head, I doubt they will re-engineer it for micro c. It is not used in the current B&G system.
The primary website is, as I understand it, going to get a major revamp.