What's the deal with Boat Brokers?

[Capn Jimbo]

"The most instructive part of my story, I think, is that this little $5,000 boat, listed as a favor, got as many inquires as the other 49 listings combined! "

Poor baby. By listing this "crap" boat, "as a favor" yet, you do no one any favors at all. A good broker is expected to know what he is representing and purports to sell. As a "favor", why not ask the seller to provide a list of the answers to the questions - with your vast experience - you should know will be asked. Or simply referring the buyers directly to the buyer.

But no. You expect the buyers to simply offer $5,000 sight unseen, or to agree to waste both their time and yours by being forced to travel and inspect a pig in a poke, thanks to your "favor". And when they are disappointed when they find all the undisclosed issues, both you and any fakokte brokerage with such a negative attitude may well suffer a loss of reputation.

But back to the issue at hand:

I've had the experience of inspecting over 50 sailboats all over Florida, having learned and become quite effective at using Don Casey's "30 minute survey", including buying and learning to use a good moisture meter (confirmed by tap testing as well), et al. What did I learn?

1. Most boats were misrepresented, either through omission or by commission.

2. Most, I mean most of the brokers did not really know the boats they were showing. Examples: a "low hours diesel in good condition, hours unknown" with a bilge full of oil 2 inches deep". Just after the bozo offered to "start her up", I dipped my hand into the bilge and came up with oil covered fingers to the second knuckle.

Another: a big "patch" of a damaged forepeak that was - I'm not kidding - fixed with a smear of auto Bondo. He denied any damage until I had to walk him up and show him.

Another: a "Bristol" 323 with a list of new cruising equipment and upgrades (at least 40 items", with glorious photos, so inviting and at such a low price that we cancelled all our plans, called the broker and arranged to immediately drive across Florida, on the premise that we'd pay asking, and would he please give us first dibs. The boat: a wreck, ready to be scrapped. No new equipment, not even on the boat. A horror story.

What did these brokers think? That we had just fallen off the turnip truck and wouldn't know the difference? That we'd come expecting a "Bristol" boat, but would still offer something for a literal wreck? That we'd believe anything - anything else they'd say or promise after that?

Not.

It gets worse. These "brokers" are not regulated. They can't guarantee anything. They don't know their boats, or know and aren't saying. They can't guarantee title, nor offer title insurance. Their "escrow" account is private, non-insured, and merged with their own funds, and yet they expect you to trust them with thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Their provided sales agreements are written to suit their own needs, and in their own defense. Many are poorly written and only loosely based on the YBBA's forms. Many demand a 10% earnest payment, yet this is entirely optional, especially considering it's the buyer who will pay for an expensive survey.

Most buyers are unaware that these "agreements" are not chiseled in stone, are entirely negotiable, and should be. I strongly urge serious buyers to find or develop their own purchase offer. I strongly recommend that it include the use of a third party escrow agent, who will NOT merge your funds.

They can't do a competent title search. They don't follow up, return phone calls, keep appointments. They do shuffle you off, and lose interest if you aren't willing to make an offer - any offer - on the spot. They are intimidated by any knowledgeable buyer who performs a good pre-survey inspection, or who asks questions they can't or won't answer, or avoid.

Another pet peeve are the usual broker ads: full of general features, but almost nothing about maintenance, age/model/conditions of the equipment - in other words the very specific information a buyer needs before deciding whether to inspect. The broker wants to create traffic - then complains when he/she gets it? Really?

In general a horror story. Sure I found a couple of good brokers, But they are the exception rather than the rule, and good luck trying to find one. You'll have to go through 30 bozos first.

Yes, this is a negative story, but sadly well deserved. It's bad enough having to search through misrepresented sailboats - it's worse having to do it via boat brokers who give used car salesmen a good name....

[KP44]

I've seen the same with real estate brokers (salespeople) and yacht brokers.
I was a real estate broker for many years and had to deal with many very lazy, dull people. In half the cases, once the listing was signed, nothing more was ever done.
.... I see yachts in the same condition. Waiting month after month in their slip with a broker's for sale sign. But no one ever looks except passers-by who have dealt with brokers but will call a For-Sale-By-Owner sign.
We always think we are getting some service. But I have seen only a few yacht brokerages that really get yachts sold for the client. Mostly we see the yacht wait for a buyer to find it. Then the salesperson is there to write up a contract and collect a commission.
Does any broker talk about realistic prices? It seems they either let it sit at a too-high price or they try to talk the owner into selling at a price low enough for an overnight sale. No one needs a broker if you're willing sell at a price that low. Same with real estate.
If you can find a good brokerage, that's great. Otherwise FSBO works well and you can split the commission with the buyer.

[KP44]

"In general a horror story. Sure I found a couple of good brokers, But they are the exception rather than the rule, and good luck trying to find one. You'll have to go through 30 bozos first."

- A decent, short, synopsis of boat brokerages.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

Poor baby. By listing this "crap" boat, "as a favor" yet, you do no one any favors at all. A good broker is expected to know what he is representing and purports to sell. As a "favor", why not ask the seller to provide a list of the answers to the questions - with your vast experience - you should know will be asked. Or simply referring the buyers directly to the buyer.

But no. You expect the buyers to simply offer $5,000 sight unseen, or to agree to waste both their time and yours by being forced to travel and inspect a pig in a poke, thanks to your "favor". And when they are disappointed when they find all the undisclosed issues, both you and any fakokte brokerage with such a negative attitude may well suffer a loss of reputation.

But back to the issue at hand:

I've had the experience of inspecting over 50 sailboats all over Florida, having learned and become quite effective at using Don Casey's "30 minute survey", including buying and learning to use a good moisture meter (confirmed by tap testing as well), et al. What did I learn?

1. Most boats were misrepresented, either through omission or by commission.

2. Most, I mean most of the brokers did not really know the boats they were showing. Examples: a "low hours diesel in good condition, hours unknown" with a bilge full of oil 2 inches deep". Just after the bozo offered to "start her up", I dipped my hand into the bilge and came up with oil covered fingers to the second knuckle.

Another: a big "patch" of a damaged forepeak that was - I'm not kidding - fixed with a smear of auto Bondo. He denied any damage until I had to walk him up and show him.

Another: a "Bristol" 323 with a list of new cruising equipment and upgrades (at least 40 items", with glorious photos, so inviting and at such a low price that we cancelled all our plans, called the broker and arranged to immediately drive across Florida, on the premise that we'd pay asking, and would he please give us first dibs. The boat: a wreck, ready to be scrapped. No new equipment, not even on the boat. A horror story.

What did these brokers think? That we had just fallen off the turnip truck and wouldn't know the difference? That we'd come expecting a "Bristol" boat, but would still offer something for a literal wreck? That we'd believe anything - anything else they'd say or promise after that?

Not.

It gets worse. These "brokers" are not regulated. They can't guarantee anything. They don't know their boats, or know and aren't saying. They can't guarantee title, nor offer title insurance. Their "escrow" account is private, non-insured, and merged with their own funds, and yet they expect you to trust them with thousands or tens of thousands of dollars. Their provided sales agreements are written to suit their own needs, and in their own defense. Many are poorly written and only loosely based on the YBBA's forms. Many demand a 10% earnest payment, yet this is entirely optional, especially considering it's the buyer who will pay for an expensive survey.

Most buyers are unaware that these "agreements" are not chiseled in stone, are entirely negotiable, and should be. I strongly urge serious buyers to find or develop their own purchase offer. I strongly recommend that it include the use of a third party escrow agent, who will NOT merge your funds.

They can't do a competent title search. They don't follow up, return phone calls, keep appointments. They do shuffle you off, and lose interest if you aren't willing to make an offer - any offer - on the spot. They are intimidated by any knowledgeable buyer who performs a good pre-survey inspection, or who asks questions they can't or won't answer, or avoid.

Another pet peeve are the usual broker ads: full of general features, but almost nothing about maintenance, age/model/conditions of the equipment - in other words the very specific information a buyer needs before deciding whether to inspect. The broker wants to create traffic - then complains when he/she gets it? Really?

In general a horror story. Sure I found a couple of good brokers, But they are the exception rather than the rule, and good luck trying to find one. You'll have to go through 30 bozos first.

Yes, this is a negative story, but sadly well deserved. It's bad enough having to search through misrepresented sailboats - it's worse having to do it via boat brokers who give used car salesmen a good name....

Ahh, Jimbo-you've got it wrong on every front. The boat was listed accurately. As a project. The owner was dead. There was no owner to refer to. I would have gladly done so.

I knew the boat very well. It was a piece of trash. The issue was that I had hundreds of people asking me to go look for things that absolutely no broker would know. How may listings have the serial number of the engine, for example.

So, I knew exactly what we had listed, and represented it as such. The issue was that all the tire kickers were asking questions that were totally absurd.

Also, nowhere did I say that I expected someone to buy the boat unseen. I said that nobody was serious enough to put down the customary 10% deposit. I don't know if you've bought many brokerage boats in your life, but the earnest money deposit is universal.

I would suggest reading the post again. You obviously understood little to nothing of what was written.

[KP44]

"As you may or may not know, it's customary in the yacht sales world for a prospective buyer to put down a 10% deposit into escrow-earnest money."

As real estate brokers, we always wanted at least a 2% earnest money deposit. But no earnest money is legally required. Many sales take place with no money down, or with 100% placed into escrow with the offer. It is up to the buyer. When I bought my yacht, I put $500 as earnest money with the offer on a $120k boat. The sale happened quickly with no problems.
We say things like it is "customary", but that only means we are trying to get a substantial deposit, rather than focus on our client's needs - the sale.


"Guess how earnest all these guys were. In 2 years that thing was on my website, not a single 'Buyer' ever was serious enough to make a (refundable) deposit.

That's right- in 2 years nobody ponied up the 5k (it could have been bought for 2k), but if I had allowed it, we would have had literally hundreds of hours chasing down questions from non-buyers."




So we are hearing that the broker left a $2,000 boat listed at over twice its actual price for 2 years and he is blaming the buyers for never getting serious?
..
It is always a disservice to the client (the seller who pays the commission) to list a boat too high-priced just to bring in phone calls. And someone called it a "favor". That's shameful. But that is the world of yacht brokers.

[Cadence]

It's like any other sales job, real estate. cars, machine tools, office equipment what ever. There are born salesmen and then there are those that lie or go by the philosophy throw as much sh4t as possible on the wall some will stick

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by TJ D

Ahh, Jimbo-you've got it wrong on every front. The boat was listed accurately. As a project. The owner was dead. There was no owner to refer to. I would have gladly done so.

I knew the boat very well. It was a piece of trash. The issue was that I had hundreds of people asking me to go look for things that absolutely no broker would know. How may listings have the serial number of the engine, for example.

So, I knew exactly what we had listed, and represented it as such. The issue was that all the tire kickers were asking questions that were totally absurd.

Also, nowhere did I say that I expected someone to buy the boat unseen. I said that nobody was serious enough to put down the customary 10% deposit. I don't know if you've bought many brokerage boats in your life, but the earnest money deposit is universal.

I would suggest reading the post again. You obviously understood little to nothing of what was written.

Years ago when I was brokering sailboats in Annapolis I had a "prospect" with a huge list of questions which he wanted answered about most any listing that we had. His budget was 10K but he wanted to look at 50k boats because....you never know.

After a few weeks it was apparent that this was going nowhere. Looking at his list I saw where he wanted to know the Dellenbaugh Angle of each of the boats. At our next meeting I asked him what Dellenbaugh Angles would be acceptable to him? That was the end of that. LOL

[sailpower]

Originally Posted by Divevac

Last month one broker showed great initiative offering to Skype-preview a boat I called about-not his listing. After 25 minutes showing me the boat from afar, he insisted I deal directly with him and his brokerage. When I openly questioned his motives, he got very pissy and terminated the call. As soon as he realized there was no nothing in it for him, he was gone, The listing broker (brokerage owner and his boss) may yet get the sale.

The broker showed great initiative but you thought it was perfectly fine to not reward him for it?

"As soon as he realized there was no nothing in it for him, he was gone"

So he should have stuck around to educate you for free?

Seems like he was going the extra mile for you and yet.....? Were you not yet in a position to buy?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by sailpower

Years ago when I was brokering sailboats in Annapolis I had a "prospect" with a huge list of questions which he wanted answered about most any listing that we had. His budget was 10K but he wanted to look at 50k boats because....you never know.

After a few weeks it was apparent that this was going nowhere. Looking at his list I saw where he wanted to know the Dellenbaugh Angle of each of the boats. At our next meeting I asked him what Dellenbaugh Angles would be acceptable to him? That was the end of that. LOL

Years ago when I was a broker in Ft Lauderdale I had a client that came to town once or twice a year to "shop for a boat". After a few trips I noticed that the boats he wanted to look for were all over the map; sail, power, large, small, different rigs, etc. No consistent pattern at all. So the next time he came to my office I asked him what exactly he was looking for. After a couple of pointed questions that he couldn't give a clear answer to he confessed that he was in FL on vacation and just liked to look at boats and had no intention of buying one. I suggested he attend a couple of boat shows and that was the end of that. LOL.

I'm still in sales, just not boats, and in my opinion one of the most important parts of the job is separating the real buyers from those that had no intention or no ability to buy. I'm not talking about tire kickers. I had several that looked and kicked tires for years that finally bought a boat but it was clear from their questions and focus they were serious tire kickers.

I can certainly understand the frustration of buyers that are seriously looking that get blown off, jerked around, left hanging and plain lied to by brokers. I do not deny it's a problem and not a rare problem but you know, that's going to be an issue no matter what you're buying whether it's a house, used car, TV, computer or anything else. Finding someone that knows their products, will honestly tell you about them and spend an appropriate amount of time helping make the decision is often the most difficult part of the process.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by sailpower

After a few weeks it was apparent that this was going nowhere. Looking at his list I saw where he wanted to know the Dellenbaugh Angle of each of the boats. At our next meeting I asked him what Dellenbaugh Angles would be acceptable to him? That was the end of that. LOL

Guess I will reveal my ignorance when I confess I don't recall ever hearing the term. Had to go look it up.

My guess, this guy was a classic example of someone that had read a lot of books about boating but had little to no experience actually on a boat. See that fairly often on the forum.

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by sailpower

Years ago when I was brokering sailboats in Annapolis I had a "prospect" with a huge list of questions which he wanted answered about most any listing that we had. His budget was 10K but he wanted to look at 50k boats because....you never know.

After a few weeks it was apparent that this was going nowhere. Looking at his list I saw where he wanted to know the Dellenbaugh Angle of each of the boats. At our next meeting I asked him what Dellenbaugh Angles would be acceptable to him? That was the end of that. LOL

This is exactly what I'm talking about. And, the guy probably thought that it was your job to personally research the Dellenbaugh angle of every single boat in your inventory. If you didn't-well, you're just a damned lazy used car salesman who sucks at his job.

This whole thing where folks are making statements like 'All brokers are worthless' is just really offensive, if you ask me. I thought that we learned a long time ago that stereotyping a group of people is simply wrong. There are lots of examples of it through history...

So, for those of you who contend that 99% of people who make their living by brokering boats are scumbags, may I ask what YOU do for a living? I'd have a bit of fun starting a thread about your profession and how everyone who does what you do is a dishonest, lazy waste of flesh.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by TJ D

... This whole thing where folks are making statements like 'All brokers are worthless' is just really offensive, if you ask me. I thought that we learned a long time ago that stereotyping a group of people is simply wrong. There are lots of examples of it through history...

Broad-based stereotyping is never healthy. But you have to admit there are enough disgruntled past clients to know there are far too many negative encounters going on.

I raised this in a previous message, but it may have got lost in my ramblings, so I’ll ask again:

For you brokers here, why not allow non-brokers to use the popular online tools like Yachtworld? This would divert some low end sellers from using brokers, which would be a good thing for sellers, buyers and brokers.

… or am I missing something?

[LeeV]

"...all brokers are worthless" doesn't do much for me. I could just as easily say the same for any group.

I, too, had to look up the term! I'm constantly reminded of how little i know!

As for my comments about the specific broker, our questions were about the options, whether we should get certain items done here instead of France, which ones, how we could save money doing so, etc....to lead to a quote. We're going to sell the tri and buy a cat. Simple. I have a 3 year plan, and with the lead time on a new cat, I'm not dallying.

v/r

[Sailorbob8599]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Guess I will reveal my ignorance when I confess I don't recall ever hearing the term. Had to go look it up.

My guess, this guy was a classic example of someone that had read a lot of books about boating but had little to no experience actually on a boat. See that fairly often on the forum.

I'm sure a great many are ignorant of the meaning of the term Skipmac, but few of us want to admit our ignorance ... so like you, I too looked it up for those who are just plain curious. Here's what I found: "The Dellenbaugh angle predicts somewhat tenderness/stiffness in small angles of heel not the actual heel" ... there's probably a lot more to it than this, but this is the best I could come up with.
Now unless one is a Naval Architect, I suspect such information is totally meaningless or even useless to the majority of 'pleasure sailors & cruisers' ... and I can see whereby a broker would consider it a waste of his time researching such information as would many of us here. I wonder if it was some geek who felt he had been wronged by a broker at some time and was out to cause that particular broker some grief or annoyance.
As for labeling all brokers as lazy good for nothings, I would suggest those who think this way should look in the mirror and consider their own shortcomings.
I've never used the services of a broker before now, but I've signed up with one and I'm willing to give him a try, regardless of the negative comments toward such person's on this forum ... wish I knew what to expect?

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by KP44

"As you may or may not know, it's customary in the yacht sales world for a prospective buyer to put down a 10% deposit into escrow-earnest money."

As real estate brokers, we always wanted at least a 2% earnest money deposit. But no earnest money is legally required. Many sales take place with no money down, or with 100% placed into escrow with the offer. It is up to the buyer. When I bought my yacht, I put $500 as earnest money with the offer on a $120k boat. The sale happened quickly with no problems.
We say things like it is "customary", but that only means we are trying to get a substantial deposit, rather than focus on our client's needs - the sale.


"Guess how earnest all these guys were. In 2 years that thing was on my website, not a single 'Buyer' ever was serious enough to make a (refundable) deposit.

That's right- in 2 years nobody ponied up the 5k (it could have been bought for 2k), but if I had allowed it, we would have had literally hundreds of hours chasing down questions from non-buyers."




So we are hearing that the broker left a $2,000 boat listed at over twice its actual price for 2 years and he is blaming the buyers for never getting serious?
..
It is always a disservice to the client (the seller who pays the commission) to list a boat too high-priced just to bring in phone calls. And someone called it a "favor". That's shameful. But that is the world of yacht brokers.

A couple of points. First, didn't you read in one of the earlier posts that real estate agents are just like boat brokers? You make huge money for not doing a damned thing!

As far as listing a boat as a favor, that's exactly what it was. The owner was dead, and I also pointed out in the story that I wasn't going to make a dime on it. What would you call it?

If you prefer 'charity' to a 'favor', that's fine, but I was providing my service for free. Do you like 'volunteer work?'

Any way you slice it, we stood to make no money and still did it. If that's shameful, I don't know what to tell you.

Regarding the 2k vs 5k-well, who knows what something like that is worth. I rather suspect that we could have dropped the price to $500 and would have had the same result. A bunch of dreamers and wannabees happily sending endless requests for nonsense.

I had one guy ask me 'what parts does the boat need?'. He wanted to sail immediately to French Polynesia, by the way. I told him that every system on the boat needed to be checked and most rebuilt. Then he angrily demanded a parts list. How the hell should I know. If everything's suspect-what to do? List every component that's fitted on a boat?

Anyway, I'm out on this one. Carry on with the broker bashing. Nothing's going to change your mind, anyway.

But, the invitation still stands-if you want to reveal your professions, I'll find some bad apples that I've interacted with in your line of work and merrily go on telling the world how dishonest and awful you all are.