Weird sale deal- what should I do?

[cdy]

Usually if its a scammer - he is going to ask for a kick back of some of the money - this does not sound like the case here - just verify a second time with his bank that the check is legit - I once sold a small boat for twice the price I was asking - guy paid me in cash and he just wanted the specific boat I had - he was a rich dude living in Naples FL - he even tried to give me another boat of his - so crazy things do happen - they are just a rare exception - usually its the typical - Nigerian prince wants to buy your boat

[mvmojo]

I'm not a lawyer so this isn't legal advice, but it's not my first rodeo either! Here's the way it generally works... The Purchase and Sale Agreement outlines the price and terms of the deal, but that's for your and his protection - it's the contract that you are doing the sale under, but it's not a bill of sale. It probably should include a phrase to the effect that once you hand him a properly executed bill of sale (which you won't do until funds clear) then you have no further responsibility for the vessel and he acknowledges that you have fulfilled all of your obligations under the contract - i.e., he has no recourse, no matter what. Once funds clear give him a notarized USCG Form 1340 Bill of Sale. If it's a documented vessel, he's responsible for submitting USCG Form 1258 to to the National Vessel Documentation Center (NVDC) to change the documentation into his name. He'll have to give them a copy of the 1340 Bill of Sale along with the completed Form 1258. You keep a copy of the Purchase and Sale Agreement AND the notarized USCG 1340 Bill of Sale to show the date you sold the boat to him. Both USCG forms can be down loaded from the National Vessel Documentation Center's web site. He can fill in the Form 1258 change of documentation on-line (that's preferred by USCG). It doesn't need your signature. If the vessel isn't documented but is a state titled vessel check with your state as to how to assign title to him - usually it's just signing ownership over to him by signing the back of the title, but every state is a little different.

[gma4]

Fred: I hope I am wrong, but...
This has several earmarks of a scam.

1) Full price offer
2) Person never saw the boat
3) Doesn't care about condition
4) He sounds so genuine on the phone.

And please, Fred, DO NOT assume that if his check "clears" at your bank, that the money is in your pocket. Fraudulent checks are often "cleared" early in the process, and later....sometimes weeks...the bank notifies you that they have determined it too be forged and pull the money from your account. If you have already taken the money out, you can expect that they will look to you for repayment.
You should talk to your bank and see what they recommend. Often the best procedure is to have his bank wire the money to your bank account. If the seller doesn't want to do this, then you know exactly what you are dealing with.

Again, I hope I am wrong.....
Greg

[Cpt Mark]

It costs money to have funds wired to you but in this case it would be worth it. Wire transfer the funds bank to bank. No chance of funny business. Or.. you could provide him your bank account number, assuming you are with a national bank with a branch near him and he deposits cash into you account. Checks, bank checks don't count. As stated above those are easily forged and may take months to be detected but when they do, your bank will withdraw the funds out of your account.

[Apollo366]

I go with Capt Mark, wire the funds, no paper checks, they can all be forged, happens all the time these days.

Also do the USCG bill of sale & registration, his family may want to nullify the sale if they think dad is senile. Protect yourself in all ways, & yes include the yard in discussions of them floating the boat & retrieving your personal possessions form the boat.

Been there, done that!

Capt. Wayne

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by DreaminFred

OK Captains-

I've had my boat for sale on sailboatlistings.com for a good price for a couple weeks, lots of calls, several folk have looked at the boat, one is serious and putting together a purchase and sale offer.

Now the weird part. This old guy called me a couple weeks ago about the boat and bent my ear for an hour about a variety of things not many of which pertained to buying a boat. I figured it was an old guy with not a lot of folk to talk to so, OK. This morning he calls (early) and says he wants to buy the boat. He wants to know how to send the money. Full price. The boat's on jackstands and I have my foot in a cast so I can't go get the boat into the water. I tell him we can finish the deal Labor Day. He says he wants to do it now- can't I have someone at the marina get it into the water and ready to go? Hmm, I guess so ...

I few minutes later I get a call from his bank. Really, I checked the bank and the employee's name- real bank, real employee, real phone number.

I've sold a lot of stuff in my years, some for a lot more money than this, but this is weird. I'm picturing this guy (I think he's 80) buying my boat, gunning the engine and going out in a blaze of glory. What should I do? How should I make it a clean break so there would be no blowback on me if he did something crazy or harmful after buying the boat?

Scratching my head.

And

Dreamin

Fred

I'm a little confused here - why would his bank call you? I wouldn't worry about affording him the opportunity to go out in a blaze of glory, if not on your boat, then he'll just do it in another boat if that's his plan. Just make sure the title is transferred correctly and the check clears before handing over the keys.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by gma4

Fred: I hope I am wrong, but...
This has several earmarks of a scam.

1) Full price offer
2) Person never saw the boat
3) Doesn't care about condition
4) He sounds so genuine on the phone.

And please, Fred, DO NOT assume that if his check "clears" at your bank, that the money is in your pocket. Fraudulent checks are often "cleared" early in the process, and later....sometimes weeks...the bank notifies you that they have determined it too be forged and pull the money from your account. If you have already taken the money out, you can expect that they will look to you for repayment.
You should talk to your bank and see what they recommend. Often the best procedure is to have his bank wire the money to your bank account. If the seller doesn't want to do this, then you know exactly what you are dealing with.

Again, I hope I am wrong.....
Greg

Yeah cashier's checks provide no protection from fraud. They ensure available funds IF LEGITIMATE but in a scam they won't be. Also don't mistake banking "fund availability" policies with a check being cleared. The check clearing process is slow and byzantine and can take up to 14 days. Banks will usually make funds available to you before that but that is merely a courtesy. If fraud is discovered later you not the bank is eating it.

I am not saying it is a scam. It might be an old man who just got the boat fever but make sure the funds actually clear. As someone else said a bank wire is safer and if it is a smaller amount, plain old cash works too. You could also meet him at his bank and personally witness the teller issue the cashier's check. You can take possession of the check right there in the bank lobby. If he is unwilling to do any of those and also unwilling to wait for the funds to clear well the chance of a scam went up a couple notches.

[disputin]

One thing to check, you got a call from the "bank". That didn't verify anything.

Look up the bank online and verify it's phone number and then call them and verify all the details. Once that's done, then the bank details are verified.




Sean

[mvmojo]

I totally agree about having the funds wired to your account rather than accepting a check, of any kind! If you're really suspicious/paranoid and don't want to give him your bank account routing and account number, you can call his bank and give the information to a customer service representative who can than handle the wire transfer for the buyer without him knowing your account information. Also, look up the bank phone number online, don't accept a phone number from the buyer. Generally a wire transfer will cost you about $10 and will also cost the other party about $10.

[Valmika]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Make sure the check clears before handing over the title.

2nd on this one. If you can, go to the bank and get the Bank check. I have had people buy a cashiers check for $50 and whitewash it and put in $5000. (just an example) By the time the bank figures it out the guy moved your boat and you wont find it. If you can't go maybe there is a service in the area that will do it for you. Seems fishy especially if he is buying it sight unseen.

Let us know how this turns out.

[Sand crab]

What's a check?


Seriously why are we even talking about those. I write one check a year for vehicle registration. Wire transfer is around $20 bucks, a real no brainer. Escrow companies are for the buyer if he wants them. If he doesn't then it's easier for the seller. Some of you make this hard.

Take the money and do the deal.

[DreaminFred]

Originally Posted by mvmojo

I'm not a lawyer so this isn't legal advice, but it's not my first rodeo either! Here's the way it generally works... The Purchase and Sale Agreement outlines the price and terms of the deal, but that's for your and his protection - it's the contract that you are doing the sale under, but it's not a bill of sale. It probably should include a phrase to the effect that once you hand him a properly executed bill of sale (which you won't do until funds clear) then you have no further responsibility for the vessel and he acknowledges that you have fulfilled all of your obligations under the contract - i.e., he has no recourse, no matter what. Once funds clear give him a notarized USCG Form 1340 Bill of Sale. If it's a documented vessel, he's responsible for submitting USCG Form 1258 to to the National Vessel Documentation Center (NVDC) to change the documentation into his name. He'll have to give them a copy of the 1340 Bill of Sale along with the completed Form 1258. You keep a copy of the Purchase and Sale Agreement AND the notarized USCG 1340 Bill of Sale to show the date you sold the boat to him. Both USCG forms can be down loaded from the National Vessel Documentation Center's web site. He can fill in the Form 1258 change of documentation on-line (that's preferred by USCG). It doesn't need your signature. If the vessel isn't documented but is a state titled vessel check with your state as to how to assign title to him - usually it's just signing ownership over to him by signing the back of the title, but every state is a little different.

Thanks MOJO-
That's consistent with my SOP. I had another buyer step forwrard, so I don't have to study this guy any longer.

Dreamin'

[Byrdman]

I'm in the real estate business. All title companies require money to be wired for funding because cashiers checks are fraudulently used all the time.

Banks usually charge between $20-$30 to send a wire. Give him your routing and account numbers to your account, and you may even want to set up an account just for this transaction. If he balks, tell him you will pay for the wire by reducing the price of the boat. If he still balks, watch out!

[DreaminFred]

OK- the rest of the story, well, maybe not the rest, but more.

After talking with the much Respected Elder, I contacted others who were close to pulling the trigger.

One of them executed the standard BoatUS Purchase Agreement and paypaled me a substantial deposit. Respected Elder is out of the deal at this point. Much more comfortable with this deal/buyer.

RE's wife called me and kind of expected me to do her dirty work and tell RE he was old, crazy and incompetent. I declined. Hope they have a good discussion. Glad I'm not respected or an elder (yet). My sweetie is going to do the sea trial on OUR next boat!

Dreamin'

PS, other than the fee, any concerns about PayPal?

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by DreaminFred

Other than the fee, any concerns about PayPal?

I guess it depends on how much money. Everything other than cash and bank wires are disputable to some degree. For a deposit I don't think there is an issue just get the balance by secure funds.

I know bank wires aren't popular because they have fees and aren't commonly used and may require a call to the bank but they are the closest thing to an electronic bag of cash.