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06-11-2024, 10:32
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#61
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,090
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay
It’s very rare that a defibrillator fails.
But, when it happens, no one is shocked.
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THats not a dad joke let's more of a grandpa joke 
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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06-11-2024, 10:40
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2024
Location: Seychelles is vessel base
Boat: Leopard 51 PowerCat
Posts: 300
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWGDVC
Johan,
Do you close all your seacocks every time you leave the boat to, let's say, use a land based toilet at a marina?
How about if you are taking a week long business trip away from the boat?
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We don’t in our case because moored in a secure marina and comfortable with age and condition of boat and the skipper that looks after her when we are not there.
But let’s say I was on anchor out in bay full time live aboard and the family went to dinner in town, I still would not close all the seacocks because the risk posed is negligible in our case but also because more than likely people don’t open what they should afterward.
You see that effect in many tests that require somebody to do A that if not undone could cause problems. Fire sprinklers are a good example, You can test a control valve without impacting whether how you test and then reset will impact whether the system will respond as intended.
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06-11-2024, 11:00
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Potomac/Chesapeake
Boat: Hunter 36
Posts: 764
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by wholybee
I don't have any experience with a diesel heater, but surely they are safer than portable electric heaters?
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Depends if you are talking about modern portable electric heaters.
The ones made back until the 1990s or so were basically an exposed toaster with a little fan to push the heat out. Even today, there are heaters sold in Asia like this. They could start a fire if they were tipped over or something dropped into them. The ones sold today (in the US at least) will automatically turn off if they are tipped over, and the heating coils are all inside, so there is no direct exposure to them. They are fairly safe to leave unattended, or at least my marina thinks so, because they didn't allow them in the past, but now they do.
I use a portable diesel heater - if I knew how good they were, I would probably have installed a permanent one. The stove type look great, but I'm guessing they aren't as good because they don't circulate the heat?
To answer the original question, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my heater unattended but would be OK doing that with a safe portable electric heater.
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06-11-2024, 12:43
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2018
Boat: 50ft Custom Fast Catamaran
Posts: 12,229
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
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let’s break down all of the incorrect information here.
Diesel furnaces draw power. Power goes through wires. wires have the potential to burn your boat down.
A boat electrical system has fuses and breakers. These items can malfunction.
There are no boats on this forum that have an automatic fire suppression system throughout the vessel. I can’t even think of a mega yacht that has that. This type of system is reserved solely for the engine room.
In summary, leaving stuff on/open/unattended in your boat when you’re away invites danger and potential denial of insurance claims. it’s also poor seamanship
and why do so many boats sink at the dock? It isn’t because people close their seacocks when they leave
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06-11-2024, 12:57
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: PNW Puget Sound
Boat: 1955 G L Watson 40' Yawl
Posts: 417
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohan
Depends if you are talking about modern portable electric heaters.
The ones made back until the 1990s or so were basically an exposed toaster with a little fan to push the heat out. Even today, there are heaters sold in Asia like this. They could start a fire if they were tipped over or something dropped into them. The ones sold today (in the US at least) will automatically turn off if they are tipped over, and the heating coils are all inside, so there is no direct exposure to them. They are fairly safe to leave unattended, or at least my marina thinks so, because they didn't allow them in the past, but now they do.
I use a portable diesel heater - if I knew how good they were, I would probably have installed a permanent one. The stove type look great, but I'm guessing they aren't as good because they don't circulate the heat?
To answer the original question, I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my heater unattended but would be OK doing that with a safe portable electric heater.
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My thoughts exactly. I've been afloat and in the marine trades long enough to know beyond any doubt that dependency on any sort of electronic or even mechanical "failsafe" on any unattended vessel is at best shortsighted. There are too many variables with fuel lines, pumps, wiring, hot exhaust etc.
Just my personal opinion based on many years of observing.
If you feel safe leaving your heater on for days/weeks unattended PLEASE consider the people/boats around you who may be affected. At least don't tie up next to me. :>)
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06-11-2024, 13:00
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 159
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Back when I sold and installed Espar diesel heaters we never told anyone to turn them off if they left and plenty of them were on from November to April. YMMV on the Chinese versions.
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06-11-2024, 13:03
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: PNW Puget Sound
Boat: 1955 G L Watson 40' Yawl
Posts: 417
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51
We don’t in our case because moored in a secure marina and comfortable with age and condition of boat and the skipper that looks after her when we are not there.
But let’s say I was on anchor out in bay full time live aboard and the family went to dinner in town, I still would not close all the seacocks because the risk posed is negligible in our case but also because more than likely people don’t open what they should afterward.
You see that effect in many tests that require somebody to do A that if not undone could cause problems. Fire sprinklers are a good example, You can test a control valve without impacting whether how you test and then reset will impact whether the system will respond as intended.
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Please do not tell me you do not close seacocks because you might forget to open it which could cause a (minor) problem...
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06-11-2024, 13:35
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Rochester, NY
Boat: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Posts: 6,972
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
and why do so many boats sink at the dock? It isn’t because people close their seacocks when they leave
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I think there's more to it than that. So many of the boats I see are poorly maintained and nothing is fixed unless it's truly broken. So boats are regularly left sitting at the dock (often for weeks at a time) with failing systems that are about to let go at any moment. And plenty of smaller boats lack self bailing decks and/or leak water through deck hatches, etc. and will eventually sink just from rainwater if the single poorly installed bilge pump fails or the semi-working batteries die.
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06-11-2024, 15:18
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#69
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running down a dream
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Florida
Boat: cape dory 30 MKII
Posts: 3,235
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
i would not leave a heater running unattended for more than a few hours or so. but low wattage electric i might let run for longer. never with a diesel or gas heater.
__________________
some of the best times of my life were spent on a boat. it just took a long time to realize it.
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06-11-2024, 17:50
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#70
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: PNW
Boat: 35 Ft. cutter, custom
Posts: 2,936
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
One can keep listing "what if's" till the end of time and try to cover everything from the sublime to the ridiculous and all in between.
Most of it is like pi**ing to windward.
Anyway, for those with a Dickindon diesel stove they make a device that senses stack temp and will shut off the fuel.
I see no reason it couldn't be adapted to most any other make/model that uses a diesel pot-burner.
I don't know,,,,, my Pacific stove runs 24/7 for 6 months or so a year and has been doing so for over 30 years.
I'd venture to say it's a pretty reliable piece of kit.
https://dickinsonmarine.com/collecti...-fuel-shut-off
__________________
Beginning to Prepare to Commence
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07-11-2024, 03:10
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#71
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 51,785
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Some thoughts on “Fail-Safe”:
Fail-safes are built in response to specific sources of failure. They don’t counteract all anticipated sources of failure. Nor do they counteract unanticipated sources of failure, except coincidentally.
Fail-safe devices, or systems, are not meant to prevent accidents, or failures from occurring.
Instead, Fail-safe devices, or systems are put in place, for when things do go wrong. Fail-safe systems prevent a situation from getting worse, when it fails.
Fail-safes are built with the expectation, that failure situations will, eventually, happen.
They prevent/ mitigate anticipated unsafe consequences, when failure does occur.
So, for instance
In building access control security:
Fail safe products are unlocked, when power is removed. Power is applied, in order to lock the door, and prevent access.
Fail secure products are locked, when power is removed. Power is applied, in order to unlock the door, and allow access.
In traffic signalling:
Because the light bulb is the main element of a traffic signal, a very simple conventional attitude was taken, to harness the unique failure mode of the light bulb: whenever a sign will not be illuminated, in any aspect, the signal shall then be considered to have the most restrictive aspect, that is, red aspect.
Thus; a driver, faced with a failed [switched off] signal will always stop, and activate degraded modes of operation, in order to continue.
In liquid/gas combustion appliances:
Fail safe flame detection products [thermocouple & fuel solenoid valve] are opened, providing fuel flow, only when power is applied [thermocouple detects heat of flame].
Of course, valves can experience other failures. Shafts can stick. Springs can break. Seals can become fouled. That means that a fail-close valve could fail in the open position.
This is where, attended only usage, becomes important.
Intrinsically safe systems, are based on using components with well-established, and limited, failure modes; and that in the event of fail , a safe operating condition is maintained.
For instance, 'intrinsically safe' is used to describe any device, that is unable, in any condition, to ignite volatile materials, and cause an explosion.
There's no such thing, as "fool-proof". “Never underestimate the ingenuity of fools. The best we can do is fool-resistant.”
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
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07-11-2024, 06:11
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#72
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Ontario, Canada
Boat: Grampian 26
Posts: 253
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
I would be shopping for a new marina if I saw that on my dock.
It’s incredible that they are willing to put everyone’s boats at risk
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The nice lady at my insurance company would cease to be nice if I did something like that. Not to mention the Marinas insurance wouldn't let that fly either! And like you, I'd be looking for another Marina as well.
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07-11-2024, 06:59
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: PNW Puget Sound
Boat: 1955 G L Watson 40' Yawl
Posts: 417
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowdrie
One can keep listing "what if's" till the end of time and try to cover everything from the sublime to the ridiculous and all in between.
Most of it is like pi**ing to windward.
Anyway, for those with a Dickindon diesel stove they make a device that senses stack temp and will shut off the fuel.
I see no reason it couldn't be adapted to most any other make/model that uses a diesel pot-burner.
I don't know,,,,, my Pacific stove runs 24/7 for 6 months or so a year and has been doing so for over 30 years.
I'd venture to say it's a pretty reliable piece of kit.
https://dickinsonmarine.com/collecti...-fuel-shut-off
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My original comment was about the forced air, cycling type heaters. Two very different systems.
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07-11-2024, 07:43
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#74
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 13,090
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotu
let’s break down all of the incorrect information here.
Diesel furnaces draw power. Power goes through wires. wires have the potential to burn your boat down.
A boat electrical system has fuses and breakers. These items can malfunction.
There are no boats on this forum that have an automatic fire suppression system throughout the vessel. I can’t even think of a mega yacht that has that. This type of system is reserved solely for the engine room.
In summary, leaving stuff on/open/unattended in your boat when you’re away invites danger and potential denial of insurance claims. it’s also poor seamanship
and why do so many boats sink at the dock? It isn’t because people close their seacocks when they leave
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Not quite correct.
Yes the brea,ers and fuses could malfunction very rare event they fail in the vlosed position.
My boat does have full vessel fire suppression it's cheap now days
I know of several ' mega" yachts that do have fire suppression throughout the vessel.
My youngest builds them . He works for delta marine. ( Google them)
As to leaving seacocks open when not on the vessel. If I close all of my seacocks I would sink at the dock. My cockpit drains are properly installed with seacocks to isolate if hoses get damaged. And yes factory installed in 1963.
In my area most boats that sink at the dock sink due to dead batteries and clogged drains. Not open seacocks.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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07-11-2024, 08:00
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#75
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Senior Cruiser

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 51,785
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Re: Unattended diesel heaters
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
Not quite correct...
1. My boat does have full vessel fire suppression it's cheap now days
2. Iknow of several ' mega" yachts that do have fire suppression throughout the vessel.
My youngest builds them . He works for delta marine. ( Google them)...
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1. What make/model fire suppression system have you?
2. I suppose, you mean Delta Marine, in Seattle, WA, USA
➥ https://www.deltamarine.com/
“Fire causes severe damage to $4.5m yacht* in Bahamas”
* 37.8m Delta Marine motor yacht “Chanson”
➥ https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/cha...-fire-bahamas/
And not:
“Delta Fire”, in Norwich, Norfolk, England
Product Range ➥ https://www.deltafire.co.uk/products/
Marine ➥ https://www.deltafire.co.uk/sectors/marine/
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
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