The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I'm not sure the speculation is useful. IMHO Nina is on the bottom, like any a boat before her.

If here Epirb wasn't float free , there are many situations where the boat is over whelmed so fast that none gets to activate it. It could easily ha e been that the skipper overestimated his ability and that of his boat and persisted too long until it was too late.

Dave

And so WHY do you have to add the last part, accusing the skipper of overestimating? WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE?
NONE, ABSOLUTELY NONE. Does it make you feel superior to say it?
Sorry, but he is likely dead and can't defend himself, so I will for him.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

And so WHY do you have to add the last part, accusing the skipper of overestimating? WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE?
NONE, ABSOLUTELY NONE. Does it make you feel superior to say it?
Sorry, but he is likely dead and can't defend himself, so I will for him.

I say it because its a common feature of skippers and boat owners that they tend to invest ( quite rightly ) in having " faith in the boat " or faith in their skills, however this often leads to a reluctance to call for help or to accept a situation may not be survivable. The documented issues with the boat also suggest a general " derring do " attitude that can sometimes lead to overestimation of success.

Furthermore given the reasonable equipment level on board ( unlike the boat In the Atlantic ) , and epirb failures are very rare , all this points to sailing into a set of circumstances that were either beyond the vessels or the skippers abilities

Dave

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

And so WHY do you have to add the last part, accusing the skipper of overestimating? WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE?
NONE, ABSOLUTELY NONE. Does it make you feel superior to say it?
Sorry, but he is likely dead and can't defend himself, so I will for him.

I think it both worth suggesting as a possible scenario (as a caution for others) and also is a reasonable supposition, given the evidence. Indeed, the limited evidence being the main evidence - a Sherlock Holmes / dog that didn't bark thing.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

accusing the skipper of overestimating? WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE?
NONE, ABSOLUTELY NONE. .

Well, if you look at what the family and friends say he was a skipper of strong personality and strong personal courage. In an earlier post I mentioned it as a similarity to the Bounty sinking. I was not insinuating anything more, however I believe its well within the gambit to look at causes of late sailing boats, or boats sailing into bad weather, or once in bad weather, their choices. The crew on board sometimes can not make a decision thats far enough removed from the strong personality of the skipper, or other main-stays of the crew.

Why is it important to bring up in a thread like this? Because we, as skippers, must be cognisant when we book crew for a passage to give them information, time, and options of second opinions before we say: "Common, of course we will be fine, you whimp, its a good boat and we will prevail".

And to crew looking for a boat to go on a passage, you must use your own brain to work out the risks involved. You must check the weather yourself, you must know the correct sailing season yourself - not rely on someone else to tell you.

[bazzer]

The official Nina thread has gone way off course and certainly should not be in the Navigation section of the forum, but the mods have decided to leave it alone. I guess that it will go on for a very long time

Now, there is no such thing as a " big red button ". In fact the buttons on the SSB and the EPIRB are not al that easy at all. The 802 SSB needs to be held down for several seconds and then it only transmits on one freq. you can send out a multiple freq. distress, but that takes a programming sequence. The EPIRB needs a little instruction as to how to operate.
My point being that a roll over or loosing a keel probably would make it very hard to push any button in the event. However, the use of AIS would have provided excellent tracking and a good " last known position"
Bazzer

[Khagan1227]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In the US maybe , but elsewhere , rescue does not mean the boat has to be abandoned

Dave

It really depends on WHO is doing the rescuing. If a merchant ship arrives on scene, either you get on his vessel and abandon ship, or he leaves you behind.

One rescue I was involved in, the merch ship wouldn't even take the crews bags off the yacht. We arrived on scene 2 hours after the crew left and their dunnage was still in the cockpit. The skipper of the yacht was doing an Atlantic crossing and was the only person (of five) on the boat who could sail. He broke his leg during the storm. The storm had abated quite a bit before we got there and we took the boat in tow.

The U.S. Coast Guard and U.S. Navy MAY attempt a tow, but it is the call of the Captain.

Based on the weather in the case of the Nina, I doubt many would risk their vessel.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Naamah

I fully appreciate it is tough but to refer to any one lost or lost completely as a body to me is insensitive. A body is nearly always someone else's "somebody". ................ I would love them and niña to return to port.

This thread is getting ridiculous! How is it a family and friends have taken over a forum blindly trying to compel a reasoning thats far removed from reality?

Families must look at the facts and stop wasting money that can be spent on the education of children than casting to the winds on dead adults.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

This thread is getting ridiculous! How is it a family and friends have taken over a forum blindly trying to compel a reasoning thats far removed from reality?

Families must look at the facts and stop wasting money that can be spent on the education of children than casting to the winds on dead adults.

Mark, what on earth has gotten into you?

Although odds are now diminishing, we have no proof that the crew has not survived. It is still not impossible.

Although relatives do not have the right to ask for threads to be censored (even when a sister of the missing skipper has opened the thread), there have been numerous requests to stop posting nasty remarks on this thread. DOJ has even opened a new thread so that anyone can air their views there. It is only common decency to abide by these requests by anxious loved ones.

And as for criticising where people waste their money, I don't think those of us who have chosen to spend our money on yachts rather than other kid's educations have any right to comment on others spending their funds on donations or searches!

[foolishsailor]

If it was my child lost at sea I would spend anything i could to find the truth. So would any other parent, it is unconscionable to suggest otherwise.

[charliehows]

yeah, look there's plenty of room on here for the family and friends to keep this channel of communication open and we should all be generous enough to show some respect for the suffering all the loved ones of the people on the Nina must be enduring. I still hope they are still out there and will survive and return. if you have some other barrow to push, this is not the appropriate thread. I wont be responding to any arguments put forward here about this so dont waste your time.

[Pelorus32]

Two things to say:

I doubt that anyone knows better than the friends and relatives how slim the thread is for their friends and family. It is gratuitous for us to keep stating the obvious.

It is the "job" of friends and relatives to keep hope alive, to pursue every avenue to its end, when others have ceased to hope or try.

It would be a woeful world if it were otherwise.

[Friend of Nina]

Mark this thread was started by family and friends. We haven't taken over CF. this is the only thread Nina uses. CF has tons of other threads you might be interested in or start your own thread. We are trying to keep just one thread.

Cherie

[Wotname]

Possible thread drift but as this is wide ranging thread loosely about Nina, I will push on .

There has recently been a bit of hoo-ah on the nice Nina thread about using the term "bodies" when referring to a potentially deceased person with one poster clearly preferring the use of "passed"; considering the term "bodies" as insensitive. I have no beef whatever term he/she prefers to use and I can understand they might some terms offensive whereas I don't.

That said, personally I find using the word "passed" to denote death is just crazy. Am I the weird one or do others find it OK to use "died", "death", "body", "deceased" etc and consider it to be part of normal language. I don't consider my now dead friends or family members to have "passed", I consider them to have died and their bodies have been disposed of in the normal manner (burial / cremation).

Am I being insensitive by using this language and perhaps should re-eduate myself to use "passed"?

[scoobert]

passed, as in from this life to the next. seeing as how 99% of the population believes in an afterlife it is appropriate.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by scoobert

passed, as in from this life to the next. seeing as how 99% of the population believes in an afterlife it is appropriate.

Hmm...not sure about the 99% bit not this is not the place to debate that question .
Perhaps I am living more in the here and now and the people I knew who have died aren't living in "my here and now"; that is not to say I don't remember them or honour their lives but (for me) to say they have passed seems wishy-washy and somehow negates the importance of their death.

Perhaps this really isn't relevant but it is the thoughts in my head as I consider the plight of the Nina crew.