The morality of interactions with the locals

[chuckr]

Belizesailor said it best -along with Aretha Franklin - R E S P E C T --


We have sailed into over 47 different countries from the primitive San Blas Islands to "sophisticated" Italy or Russia. We have been in fishing ports in the Black Sea to Athens - Muslim, Christian, and Jewish ports -


One thing we always do is treat each and every person with the respect that we would treat our friends and families. I am old enough to remember a book I read a long time - "The Ugly American" - and kept it's message to heart.


We respect their traditions, their culture and their way of life. We have set and had tea with Turkish fishermen who did not speak English but we communicated, We had a great conversation and shared jokes with a camel herder in the Tunisian desert with the help of truck driver who stopped by to see his friend the herder and spoke a bit of English - we talk to everyone regardless and only one time have we had a bad experience - Volos Greece from a dock guy where as the local folks were incredible -


We constantly hear that we are lucky to live the life we do and it is nice that we are rich. We say our life if beyond belief but no we are not rich as we do this on our government pension - they seem to understand that as many know what a government pension is. It may not be as much as we receive but they understand the concept.


One exwife told me she hopes I never meet the queen of England and I said why not? She said you would treat her as you treat everyone else to which I replied yes I would as she is nothing special - only in peoples mind - she is born the same way, dies the same, eats, goes to the bathroom, gets grey hair, goes through childbirth the same ect - we humans elevate people -


I guess I am done with my rant for now. RESPECT and do not think you are better than anyone you meet - count your blessings that you were born where you were.

[CatNewBee]

It is a very tough point.

There are lots of remote island people who want to be let alone and control their way of life, decide who is invited to stay and who not, but still invaded, colonized, lectured and ruled by well meaning "civilized" continental folks.

Look at Brexit.

Look also at French Polynesia, where the foreigners over-voted leave.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by StuM

Worth is subjective and totally dependent on the circumstances.

If both sides were happy with the trade, then the fish, woodcarvings, meals were worth exactly the same as the flashlight batteries, tobacco etc in that place at that time.

Exactly. YOU may think that you are getting something worth far more than you're giving. The OTHER person may very well feel exactly the same! Those batteries are probably worth WAAAY more to them than a few fish!


In fact, that may be the very definition of a good trade -- where both sides end up feeling like they might have taken advantage of the other guy a little bit.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

There are lots of remote island people who want to be let alone and control their way of life, decide who is invited to stay and who not, but still invaded, colonized, lectured and ruled by well meaning "civilized" continental folks.

Why so many felt that missionary in the Andamans deserved every arrow in his butt, pure evil.

Can't believe the media kept referring to him as well-meaning and "brave", spineless kowtowing to our fanatic fundamentalists I guess.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Why so many felt that missionary in the Andamans deserved every arrow in his butt, pure evil.

Can't believe the media kept referring to him as well-meaning and "brave", spineless kowtowing to our fanatic fundamentalists I guess.

Off-topic and redundant, but all 'mysteries' about 'the media' evaporate immediately upon remembering their primary goal, profit...


As for the original question, again, the starting point is basic mutual respect, for all of the environment and it's inhabitants.

Seems to me that even the phrasing of the question might show a bit of the 'colonial spirit' many (most?) here appear to have a problem with (me included).

[john61ct]

Yes, deeply socialized harmful paradigms do persist long after we start trying to keep mindful counteracting them.

Personally I think that example is very directly pertinent.

The early colonizer / imperialists used religious justifications to override moral objections to their genocidal projects.

[GordMay]

With apologies to Rudyard Kipling
Take up the White Man’s burden.
Send forth your sturdy kin,
And load them down with Bibles
And cannon-balls and gin.
Throw in a few diseases
To spread the tropic climes,
For there the healthy niggers
Are quite behind the times.
And don’t forget the factories.
On those benighted shores
They have no cheerful iron mills,
Nor eke department stores.
They never work twelve hours a day
And live in strange content,
Altho they never have to pay
A single sou of rent.
Take up the White Man’s burden,
And teach the Philippines
What interest and taxes are
And what a mortgage means.
Give them electrocution chairs,
And prisons, too, galore,
And if they seem inclined to kick,
Then spill their heathen gore.
They need our labor question, too,
And politics and fraud—
We’ve made a pretty mess at home,
Let’s make a mess abroad.
And let us ever humbly pray
The Lord of Hosts may deign
To stir our feeble memories
Lest we forget—the Maine.
Take up the White’s Man’s burden.
To you who thus succeed
In civilizing savage hordes,
They owe a debt, indeed;
Concessions, pensions, salaries,
And privilege and right—
With outstretched hands you raised to bless
Grab everything in sight.
Take up the White Man’s burden
And if you write in verse,
Flatter your nation’s vices
And strive to make them worse.
Then learn that if with pious words
You ornament each phrase,
In a world of canting hypocrites
This kind of business pays.

Source: Ernest Crosby, “The Real White Man’s Burden,” Swords and Ploughshares (New York: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1902), 32–35.

===

Take up the White Man’s burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go send your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child
Take up the White Man’s burden
In patience to abide
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple
An hundred times made plain
To seek another’s profit
And work another’s gain
Take up the White Man’s burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah slowly) to the light:
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
“Our loved Egyptian night?”
Take up the White Man’s burden-
Have done with childish days-
The lightly proffered laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

Source: Rudyard Kipling, “The White Man’s Burden: The United States & The Philippine Islands, 1899.” Rudyard Kipling’s Verse: Definitive Edition (Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1929).

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by StuM

Worth is subjective and totally dependent on the circumstances.


If both sides were happy with the trade, then the fish, woodcarvings, meals were worth exactly the same as the flashlight batteries, tobacco etc in that place at that time.

Exactly. They are not worth that much in the place they were made, only when taken (by you) and sold (by you) to places where they aren't common. I intend on bringing educational supplies and cheap reading glasses to trade (or gift) in some places where the supply ship is only three times a year, as well as haul my Honda genset ashore to run a power tool or a string of lights. Other cruisers say it's a great way to make friends around the average lagoon.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by GordMay

With apologies to Rudyard Kipling
Take up the White Man’s burden.
Send forth your sturdy kin,
And load them down with Bibles
And cannon-balls and gin.
Throw in a few diseases
To spread the tropic climes,
For there the healthy niggers
Are quite behind the times.
And don’t forget the factories.
On those benighted shores
They have no cheerful iron mills,
Nor eke department stores.
They never work twelve hours a day
And live in strange content,
Altho they never have to pay
A single sou of rent.
Take up the White Man’s burden,
And teach the Philippines
What interest and taxes are
And what a mortgage means.
Give them electrocution chairs,
And prisons, too, galore,
And if they seem inclined to kick,
Then spill their heathen gore.
They need our labor question, too,
And politics and fraud—
We’ve made a pretty mess at home,
Let’s make a mess abroad.
And let us ever humbly pray
The Lord of Hosts may deign
To stir our feeble memories
Lest we forget—the Maine.
Take up the White’s Man’s burden.
To you who thus succeed
In civilizing savage hordes,
They owe a debt, indeed;
Concessions, pensions, salaries,
And privilege and right—
With outstretched hands you raised to bless
Grab everything in sight.
Take up the White Man’s burden
And if you write in verse,
Flatter your nation’s vices
And strive to make them worse.
Then learn that if with pious words
You ornament each phrase,
In a world of canting hypocrites
This kind of business pays.

Source: Ernest Crosby, “The Real White Man’s Burden,” Swords and Ploughshares (New York: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1902), 32–35.

===

Take up the White Man’s burden—
Send forth the best ye breed—
Go send your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need
To wait in heavy harness
On fluttered folk and wild—
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child
Take up the White Man’s burden
In patience to abide
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple
An hundred times made plain
To seek another’s profit
And work another’s gain
Take up the White Man’s burden—
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard—
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah slowly) to the light:
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
“Our loved Egyptian night?”
Take up the White Man’s burden-
Have done with childish days-
The lightly proffered laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold-edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

Source: Rudyard Kipling, “The White Man’s Burden: The United States & The Philippine Islands, 1899.” Rudyard Kipling’s Verse: Definitive Edition (Garden City, New York: Doubleday, 1929).

With Respect these versus were written in the late 19th Century to early 20th , we as a population and humanity has moved on , and the fact that we need a thread to get our moral conscious out and let the world know how good people we are is laughable.
Just be nice to your fellow Human , no matter what wealth , color of Skin , or Religious beliefs, the fact that people need to talk about their own moral compass , means that they are trying to be nice, just be normal, they are after all human as well and you will find a natural balance will happen quite easily as they are not awed by your wealth. As said before wealth is relative.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by GTom

Maybe I am just too young or don't go to places like the Andamans, but most places in the 3rd world I was asked 3x the realistic price for just about everything... OK, coconuts were free...

A couple of things. First most of the poor people in our country would be considered well off in many third world countries. They just don’t have our wealth. Second, in most third world countries bargaining is a way of life. Being poor, it is important to get as much as you can. I am in Mexico now, it is common to pay 1/3 to 1/2 the asking price. Nothing for anyone to be offended by.

[DMCantor]

We have volunteered on many islands, building libraries in schools, sprucing up homes for seniors, reading to kids, teaching swimming to kids. There's an almost unlimited number of things you can do.

We have very good relations with several people. I believe that, because they have invited us to meet their mothers, grandmothers, nephews, and nieces.

In the Eastern Caribbean, many folks rely on business from yachties to earn a living, whether its guiding hikes, doing laundry, varnishing, or whatever. We try to use local labor whenever we can, and never try to bargain too hard on the price.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by DMCantor

We have volunteered on many islands, building libraries in schools, sprucing up homes for seniors, reading to kids, teaching swimming to kids. There's an almost unlimited number of things you can do.

We have very good relations with several people. I believe that, because they have invited us to meet their mothers, grandmothers, nephews, and nieces.

In the Eastern Caribbean, many folks rely on business from yachties to earn a living, whether its guiding hikes, doing laundry, varnishing, or whatever. We try to use local labor whenever we can, and never try to bargain too hard on the price.

I love this , I am not slating your contribution, but what is wrong with the local people building and helping their communities , this whole white wealthy person going in and helping to ease their moral identity is what is causing the problems , by going in and doing this we proclaim we are superior to those around us,now if you had a special skill like a teacher or a electrician or medical person and volunteered were there was a proper shortage of experience then this is a good way to help local communities , but by going in and helping pick up rubbish or helping the local turtle population(Always middle class white female) undermines these locals that look upon with resentment to the wealthy yatchie coming in and acting all superior , this causes a chain reaction were it is now expected and a culture has been born from white middle class tourists volunteering and helping in so called deprived areas. (which were not deprived until we showed up showing off our wealth) ,rather than the local population being infused with their pride and self worth and educated about the world around them.

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by tarian

I love this , I am not slating your contribution, but what is wrong with the local people building and helping their communities , this whole white wealthy person going in and helping to ease their moral identity is what is causing the problems , by going in and doing this we proclaim we are superior to those around us,now if you had a special skill like a teacher or a electrician or medical person and volunteered were there was a proper shortage of experience then this is a good way to help local communities , but by going in and helping pick up rubbish or helping the local turtle population(Always middle class white female) undermines these locals that look upon with resentment to the wealthy yatchie coming in and acting all superior , this causes a chain reaction were it is now expected and a culture has been born from white middle class tourists volunteering and helping in so called deprived areas. (which were not deprived until we showed up showing off our wealth) ,rather than the local population being infused with their pride and self worth and educated about the world around them.

One of two things, #1 you have never been to a real third world country. #2 you have and you’re incredibly nieve.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

One of two things, #1 you have never been to a real third world country. #2 you have and you’re incredibly nieve.

Your all seeing eye is working strong and the force is with you, come on statements like that make you look silly , this is a debate without any mudslinging dont start now.

[tarian]

Originally Posted by captlloyd

One of two things, #1 you have never been to a real third world country. #2 you have and you’re incredibly nieve.

just for some clarity as well in the true definition of a third world country which was taken from the Cold war and did not reflect the Economic wealth of a country. But the term has been now used to describe poorer nations , but with the true nature of all things it is not perfectly clear. here is a list of the most deprived areas, in the World, and It seems the Caribbean and the South Pacific Islands (sorry there are 2 small islands)dont show up and the vast Majority are land locked
Their are poor people in every country even the Richest so why are you not volunteering in you own Country First.
As of 2018, there are several LDCs. These include in alphabetical order):

Afghanistan, Angola
Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi
Cambodia, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros
Democratic Republic of the Congo, Djibouti
East Timor, Eritrea, Ethiopia
Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau
Haiti
Kiribati
Laos, Lesotho, Liberia
Madagascar, Malawi, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Myanmar
Nepal, Niger
Rwanda
Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan
Tanzania, Togo, Tuvalu
Uganda
Vanuatu
Yemen
Zambia