Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

[nicholson31]

ROGNVALD, yes good point, I know there was supposed to have been a variation in the climate which must have been the case, or as i said, they were suckers for punishment!!
Food I would say was in abundance as there would have been seal, fish caribou, berries and sea birds including the now extinct "great auk" a flightless bird which used to be in abundance in Newfoundland, another life form tragically removed. As far as trees for ship building, Pine was in great quantity in central and along more southern areas of the province but scarce along the west coast and up along the N. peninsula except for Tuckamore. Here is a pic of a tuckamore tree from that general area. As you can see they are very stunted and lop-sided from the strong prevailing winds. It was probably the same size when Eric the Red was here.

[Tetepare]

If somebody has time and interest, and better Google foo than me, I recall last year reading an article about Midwest USA place names that everyone thinks are Indian but a strong argument was made that they were Norse. For the life of me I've not been able to find it again!

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by nicholson31

ROGNVALD, yes good point, I know there was supposed to have been a variation in the climate which must have been the case, or as i said, they were suckers for punishment!!
Food I would say was in abundance as there would have been seal, fish caribou, berries and sea birds including the now extinct "great auk" a flightless bird which used to be in abundance in Newfoundland, another life form tragically removed. As far as trees for ship building, Pine was in great quantity in central and along more southern areas of the province but scarce along the west coast and up along the N. peninsula except for Tuckamore. Here is a pic of a tuckamore tree from that general area. As you can see they are very stunted and lop-sided from the strong prevailing winds. It was probably the same size when Eric the Red was here.

Nick,
The trees used for shipbuilding came from Labrador. It was a source of wood for shipbuilding and general construction for Greenlanders well into the 14th Century. Trees used were oak, pine, ash, alder and birch. Certainly, shipbuilders in Newfoundland used the Eastern Labrador coast for harvesting these trees. That area was known as Markland to the Vikings and still is forested today. The Sagas record "Leif the Lucky"(Leif Ericson) rescuing shipwrecked sailors with a load of timber on a reef in the Greenland Sea--thus the name "Lucky." Today, Labrador has populations of all the above species except perhaps native oak. Good luck and safe sailing.

[dannc]

Years ago I saw a documentary that was studying Vikings on Greenland. They were digging through the Viking's garbage and they could see how climate was changing. The oldest layers of garbage had cattle and sheep bones but as time progress the larger animals disappeared they only found progressively smaller animals being used for food.

The implication is that Greenland was turning into Whiteland as the climate got colder and the larger animals could not survive. Of course, eventually the Vikings could not survive either and died or left.

The documentary made the point that the Vikings did NOT adapt to the environment like the native peoples and therefore had to leave or die. Part of the researchers argument was the lack, or minimal amount, of sea mammals remains found in the garbage. This is puzzling to me since I would have expected the Viking's to have hunted seals. Maybe the seals were not in the area at the earlier stages of cooling?

Later,
Dan

[svJasmine]

The old sit is on the WEST side of
Newfoundland.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by rognvald

There is another credible site in Newfoundland called Sops's Arm on the East Coast. Archeologists found credible evidence of Viking hunting pits identical to those used in Norway in the 11th Century AD. The interesting facet of the use of satellite navigation is discovering the presence of potential archeological sites that would be difficult if not impossible to discover by physical exploration alone. Newfoundland is proving to be an archeological hotbed for Viking History. Here's an excellent academic article on the Sop's Arm site.
https://www.researchgate.net/.../234...ling_into_Vinl...

Back in the mid 20th c. archaeologists working in Mesopotamia flying in low and slow small planes at very low altitudes noticed that some morning dew followed geometrical i.e. artificial contours. From that discovery they established a new technique of looking for ancient sites which otherwise were not noticeable at all. Most likely today's satellite based search is continuing in that vein.

[CascoME]

Re: dannc--

The conjecture is that the Norse, because they had converted to Christianity, would not 'lower' themselves to follow the local diet that allowed the Pagan natives to succeed in the localized climate. As the world got colder as the Warming Period ended, and their reliance on dairy products began to fail them, they effectively starved to death because of their cultural belief system. That, and it's thought that the trade routes that helped sustain the population there, from Norway and Ireland especially, became more tenuous with the changing weather patterns. There is a notable decline in trading voyages attempted between Norway and Greenland in the surviving records as the mid-1300's passed. With the Greenlanders at the ''pointy-end of the spear', civilization-wise, they really depended on traders making their way from Europe with the goods that they couldn't provide for themselves.

S.

[Nicholson58]

I've been watching videos on this and reading on the Smithsonian site. I think this is only the tip of this iceberg. Lots of signs they were in Copper Harbor trading copper and in Minnesota. It is possible high water made the central part of the upper peninsula wet enough to float boats through to Lake Michigan. Lots of anchor stones. Petroglyphs in Copper Harbor resembling a Viking long boat. Really difficult to trace these migrations of people who lived in sod huts. Many local Indian languages have words with roots to Norse. Institute for Megalithic Research: PETROGLYPH OF A SAILING BOAT (Copper Harbor, Upper Michigan, c.1640 BC)

[krafthaus]

Another interesting but little known fact about the Vikings.....

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

I've been watching videos on this and reading on the Smithsonian site. I think this is only the tip of this iceberg. Lots of signs they were in Copper Harbor trading copper and in Minnesota. It is possible high water made the central part of the upper peninsula wet enough to float boats through to Lake Michigan. Lots of anchor stones. Petroglyphs in Copper Harbor resembling a Viking long boat. Really difficult to trace these migrations of people who lived in sod huts. Many local Indian languages have words with roots to Norse. Institute for Megalithic Research: PETROGLYPH OF A SAILING BOAT (Copper Harbor, Upper Michigan, c.1640 BC)

Nick,
In the last ten years, there has been a shameful exploitation of junk science/junk archeology that is presented to the public as scientifically credible by reality TV programs using the name "Science," "History," or "Archeology" to dupe the public for entertainment purposes. It makes interesting TV to unwitting viewers but serves to distort credible research that must conform to basic review and standards. We saw this in the past with Von Daniken"s "Chariot of the Gods" and in the expose of the "Viking" Kensington Stone as a fraud. Unfortunately, this is just another in a long list of "fantasies" presented as fact to the general public. Here's a great article that will explain this in great detail. Good luck and safe sailing.
https://archyfantasies.com/tag/coppe...or-petroglyph/

[AquaGeo]

Originally Posted by dannc

I think the two hour show could have been done in an hour and provided the exact same information.

This sort of false drama and repeat editing to increase the runtime of a show is one of the reasons we cut the cord to pay TV...

Amen Brother!

I love documentaries, they don't need the corny false drama and cheesy voice over guy creating a sense of urgency...

[Caribbeachbum]

Originally Posted by accomplice

... It would seem that viewed from a broad historical perspective that the europeans, although faced with a number of failures, kept at it until they established "beach-heads" which enabled further colonization.

It's probably worth noting that the Europeans arriving a few centuries later brought their friends yersinia and variola to address any issues with the indigenous population.

-

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by dannc

I was annoyed at the show though. It sounded like and was edited like so many of the "history" shows on Discovery and History channels where they try to add drama to the show, repeat scenes, etc. I think the two hour show could have been done in an hour and provided the exact same information.

This sort of false drama and repeat editing to increase the runtime of a show is one of the reasons we cut the cord to pay TV...

I really don't have anything to add, except to say this is an interesting thread, thanks to all who contributed...

AND to totally agree with Dannc on the above! I also cut the cable when I realized (among other things) that there are no "real" non-fiction shows on anymore.

My only quibble with Dannc on this would be that most 2-hour shows only have about 10-15 minutes of original material, not an hour. 20 minutes for commercials, and the rest is just showing the same footage over and over, continually repeating everything that happened before the commercial break.

Even some of the better "Life on Earth" and Nova shows lately have overly dramatic music, played at a volume much louder than the voice-over. There was one we saw the other day that did all kinds of "artsy" transitions to flash between shots of the subject matter that only lasted a second or less.

No doubt they won some artistic award for that effect. All it did was irritate me, because I couldn't get a good look at the thing they were showing!

[rognvald]

Originally Posted by alaskaflyfish

I grew up on the south coat of Newfoundland. We as kids were told by our elders that there were vikings in the area long ago. I don't really know how our elders came by that information though.

Tim,
If you are a Native American, your people have a tradition of passing knowledge/history from one generation to the next. It is how the Viking Sagas were kept alive until they were recorded in writing hundreds of years later ,after their exploits, by the Icelanders. Many historians and archeologists today seriously consider these folk tales/tribal history to have a total comprehensive view of historic events and without these clues, the discoveries in Newfoundland may never have occurred. And, there is something now that Science has accepted as fact--Ancestral/Genetic Memory which is knowledge that has been encoded in our familial DNA and passed from one generation to the next. Thanks for the great insight. Rognvald

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by rognvald

Tim,
If you are a Native American, your people have a tradition of passing knowledge/history from one generation to the next. It is how the Viking Sagas were kept alive until they were recorded in writing hundreds of years later ,after their exploits, by the Icelanders. Many historians and archeologists today seriously consider these folk tales/tribal history to have a total comprehensive view of historic events and without these clues, the discoveries in Newfoundland may never have occurred. And, there is something now that Science has accepted as fact--Ancestral/Genetic Memory which is knowledge that has been encoded in our familial DNA and passed from one generation to the next. Thanks for the great insight. Rognvald

There have also been numerous studies comparing memory recall of non-writing cultures to our own and they tend to show that memory is/was much stronger and the ability to pass on verbally retained information is much greater in societies without writing. This is why in Homeric or Viking times reciting their respective histories accurately was not as big of a deal as it may seem to us today. We're all familiar with "stored phone number" syndrome where relying in technology we now rarely can remember anyone's telephone number.