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Old 11-04-2016, 16:57   #31
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

There is now a local guy claiming a third site very near the second. Says he has been trying to get interest for years. No real info at this moment.
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Old 11-04-2016, 17:00   #32
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

IIRC the Vikings did not arrive in NL as Christians but coon erred shortly thereafter.

I talked to a local who worked on the middens at Aux A meadows about fish bones. He siad they found tons of em.
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Old 12-04-2016, 16:43   #33
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

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Tim,
If you are a Native American, your people have a tradition of passing knowledge/history from one generation to the next. It is how the Viking Sagas were kept alive until they were recorded in writing hundreds of years later ,after their exploits, by the Icelanders. Many historians and archeologists today seriously consider these folk tales/tribal history to have a total comprehensive view of historic events and without these clues, the discoveries in Newfoundland may never have occurred. And, there is something now that Science has accepted as fact--Ancestral/Genetic Memory which is knowledge that has been encoded in our familial DNA and passed from one generation to the next. Thanks for the great insight. Rognvald
This is also how knowledge to navigate the Pacific was passed down & recently resurrected on cruising canoes, this despite years of anthropologists proclaiming it could not be done. Somehow its OK if the hand-me-down is your religious icon but not for anybody else. We would do well to bay close attention to the oral history of all of these native peoples. Somehow the PHD behind the desk is the anointed one while a preponderance of data is ignored. "not invented here?"
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Old 16-09-2023, 11:07   #34
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A second potential Viking site in Newfoundland dating from 800-1300 AD has been discovered at Point Rosee on the SW coast.
Even if they did not find anything at that Point Rosee site from the Vikings, at face value it's a candidate for Leif Erikson's "Leifsbudir" at Vinland in the Greenlanders' Saga. This is because that Saga describes Leif's buildings as being on a salmon lake upriver from some shallows down the west coast from a northward cape. Between the northward cape and a dewy island there is a strait, and the Vikings get to the land that the northward cape is on by sailing southwest two days from the Labrador Peninsula.

Newfoundland's west coast, west of the viking ship repair station at L'anse aux Meadows, has a couple northward capes like: the "Port Au Port Peninsula" at the town of Tea Cove, the peninsula at the South Head Fibreglass Post Lighthouse at Lark Harbor, the Port au Choix Peninsula, the peninsula at shoal cove, Cape Norman, Burnt Cape, and Cape Onion. About a dozen rivers with salmon are down the western coast from all of these capes, although most don't have literal "lakes" that you could sail upriver to.

But conceivably Leifsbudir could be on a lake anywhere on the Gulf of St. Lawrence's mainland coasts south of the Labrador Peninsula, running from L'anse aux Meadows west to Quebec City, since the Vikings arrived there by sailing southwest from the Labrador Peninsula. I showed the range with my red line on this map:


Here is the passage from the Greenlanders' Saga from Jansson's 1944 translation about their two day sail on northeasterly (ie. southwestward) winds, on to the salmon lake at building of Leif's camp:
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Now they sail out into the ocean on a northeasterly wind, and were at sea for two days before they saw land, and sailed toward the shore and came to an island that lay north of the land, and landed there and had a look about them in good weather and found that there was dew on the grass, and by chance they put their hands in the dew and put it to their mouths and it seemed to them that they had never tasted anything as sweet as that was.

Then they went to their ship and sailed into the channel that lay between the island and a headland that extended north from the land. They headed in a westerly direction around the headland. At low tide there were extensive shallows and then their ship became beached, and from the ship the sea looked a long way off.

But their curiosity was so great to go ashore that they could not be bothered to wait for the sea to rise under their ship, and they ran to land where a river flowed out from a certain lake. But when the sea lifted their ship again, they took the boat and rowed to the ship and moved it up into the river and so into the lake, and dropped anchor there and carried their sleeping bags from the ship and made camp there. Then they took the decision to arrange themselves at this place for the winter and put up some large buildings.
One issue in interpreting this is whether (A) the spot on the "land" that they reached was the northward cape, or if (B) they reached the land first and then sailed westward along it to the cape. At first I thought that A was the case, but now it's not clear to me. The practical difference is whether you would look for a northward cape 2 days' sail southwest from Labrador's Peninsula or if you would be more flexible and just look for any mainland landing spot southwest of Labrador's Peninsula and then follow the coastline west to a northward cape west of that landing spot.
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Old 17-09-2023, 06:46   #35
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

"But conceivably Leifsbudir could be on a lake anywhere on the Gulf of St. Lawrence's mainland coasts south of the Labrador Peninsula, running from L'anse aux Meadows west to Quebec City, since the Vikings arrived there by sailing southwest from the Labrador Peninsula." Rakovsky

Hi, Rakovsky,
I've been away for quite awhile and just received this e-mail the other day. We're preparing our boat for our "last" extended cruise and hope to leave sometime in the early Winter. When we left Chicago in late June of 2018(due to bad weather), we sailed our boat from Chicago to Rimouski, Quebec(1750 miles) where weather in late September forced us to pull our boat. We had hoped to make it to Newfoundland to pursue some informational trips in re: early Viking sites but it never happened--a great disappointment for us and that's a long story. We've been living in the Tropics since then.
So, your above statement reflects ,for me, the reality of Leifbudir's location and perhaps the future will reveal some additional sites. Having traveled this area by boat, I can see no reason why the Vikings didn't make it as far as Quebec on the St. Lawrence or any of the rivers that surround the Gulf of St. Lawrence as Cabot proved existed much later in his journal of his epic voyage of discovery. Historical detective work is a slow process and a good dose of luck doesn't hurt. Thanks for your response and I hope, in the future, to participate more often in this excellent forum.
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Old 20-09-2023, 10:30   #36
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

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We had hoped to make it to Newfoundland to pursue some informational trips in re: early Viking sites but it never happened--a great disappointment for us and that's a long story. We've been living in the Tropics since then.
Rognvald,
Your trip sounds exciting. You actually didn't need to go as far into the cold north as Newfoundland to make sure to hit someplace that the Vikings visited.

At the Viking site at L'anse aux Meadows, archaeologists found butternuts and a butternut tree burl that had been cut with a metal tool. So we can tell that the Vikings got within the Butternuts' range to harvest them. The butternuts' range looks pretty stable in the northeast range for it over the past centuries, unlike grapes, for which we have early modern colonial European records of grapes being growing wildly in both western and eastern Newfoundland a couple centuries ago. Here is one such Butternut range map:


The northeast range runs from the St Lawrence River Valley over eastward to New Brunswick and south from there to New England. In N.Brunswick, the spot flowing to the St Lawrence Gulf with them is Miramichi River. It's in the Doaktown area on its south tributary, and I saw on Facebook that someone found it by the Memorial Hospital on the main trunk of the Miramichi River.

This range is confirmed by overlapping the butternuts' range with the Jack Pine range, since this year archaeologists found Jack Pine in Viking wood in Greenland, so that the Vikings must have collected Jack Pine. Jack Pine's northeast range is like the butternuts' northeast range, except that Jack Pine's range is a bit more expansive and includes a bit of central Nova Scotia. Out of these ranges, we can tell that the Vikings would have gone to the more limited range at least, since both kinds of wood were found at the Viking sites.

So there are four regions and the Vikings must have visited one of their coasts:
1. St. Lawrence River Valley
2. Miramichi Bay or maybe Chaleur Bay or another part of eastern N.B. if there were butternuts in those places, with Miramichi River being the only confirmed location with butternuts
3. the St John's River Valley in southern N.B. which has a ton of butternuts up and down that valley in surveys.
4. New England.

Sites #1-2 are the most accessible spot to arrive at from Greenland and L'anse aux Meadows because one wouldn't have to sail around eastern Nova Scotia. But out of #1-2, only #2 looks like a reasonable match for any camp/settlement site in the two Vinland Sagas, for a couple reasons: It's hard to find a clear northward peninsula/ness/cape between the Gaspe Peninsula and Lake Ontario, so #1 looks unlikely. It's also not clear how Vikings would make a 2 day journey from the Labrador Peninsula to the Gaspe' Peninsula if that peninsula was the northward one. But anyway, the Gaspe' Peninsula is kind of a northeast peninsula and it's so big that it might not count as a Ness from the Vikings' normal naming style.
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Old 20-09-2023, 14:26   #37
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

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We would do well to bay close attention to the oral history of all of these native peoples. Somehow the PHD behind the desk is the anointed one while a preponderance of data is ignored. "not invented here?"
Psychological issues usually determine motives of "experts" not rational logic and facts. Over time tho, logic and facts win out, but its a slow process as those with vested interests have to die off. Sad, but true.
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Old 20-09-2023, 16:12   #38
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I've been away for quite awhile and just received this e-mail the other day. We're preparing our boat for our "last" extended cruise and hope to leave sometime in the early Winter. When we left Chicago in late June of 2018(due to bad weather), we sailed our boat from Chicago to Rimouski, Quebec(1750 miles) where weather in late September forced us to pull our boat. We had hoped to make it to Newfoundland to pursue some informational trips in re: early Viking sites but it never happened--a great disappointment for us and that's a long story.
Rognvald,

I am attaching a map of the Jack Pine wood's northeast range, with the range colored in light brown from the Canadian Forest Service website. If you open it in a new window, you can see the names in purple more clearly. For fun, on this map I am tracing a route that you could have taken, or someone else could take, if they want to cruise your route from Lake Erie up to Quebec and then wants to travel along the provable range of the Vikings' southwest travels, and then return home without going to Newfoundland or such cold places. It takes you on some canal routes, but Farley Mowat wrote an adventure story where he started boating in the Canadian west, so it's a fun thought experiment.

I am marking my "fantasy route" for you with a red line. First you would sail down the St. Lawrence River. There are a couple fun Viking-themed things on the way, like the questionable Viking spear "found" on the Great Lakes coast at Charles Point, New York state in 1929 by A. Hoffman. Then there is a fun modern Viking recreational village called "Hop" near St. Simeon, Quebec (https://villageviking.com).

Then you would sail down the Gaspe' Peninsula's coast to the Chaleur Bay and Miramichi Bay's Rivers. The river around the Beaubears Island area looks to me like a top "lake"-type candidate for the lake where the Vikings put Leifsbudir, and the Miramichi River area has Butternuts. Curiously, there are practically no Viking-type legends or "artifacts" that I've found in New Brunswick, even though there are a ton for New England.

Third,you might go up to the north end of Nova Scotia to find the candidates for Kjalarnes and Krossanes, weather permitting. Or you could take a shortcut and sail on the south side of Cape Breton Island, and then down to Halifax.

Then in the Bay of Fundy it's worth visiting the St. John's River valley, because there are a ton of butternuts up and down that river valley. The concentration is pretty high there based on a Canadian biology survey map I found. That valley together with the Bay of Fundy are a top candidate for Straumsfjordr's region IMO.

Then you would sail to Brooklin, ME where archaeologists found the Maine Penny. A bit farther down the Maine Coast, is Spirit Pond, ME where the Spirit Pond Runestones were "found". The spot is pretty close to where the English put the 1607 Popham colony the same year as Jamestown, but a bit later.

Then farther south you get to the area of "Norumbega" and Mount Hope / Montaup. Norumbega shows up on alot of 16th century maps for the southern New England region. On the first such map according to Wikipedia, it was called Oranbega. The ending "-bega" reminds me of the Norse words for "settlement / people" as in Vestribygda (Western Settlement) and the "Eyrbyggja Saga" (Saga of the people of Eyr).

Mount Hope, a Europeanization of the Algonquin name Mountaup, is a Tidal Pool Estuary region in Rhode Island, and as such it reminds me of the Vikings' Land of Hop, Hop meaning Tidal Pool Estuary. There is much curious archaeology in that region, like Dighton Rock, that may be traceable to Amerindians, and also a lot of purported "Viking" artefacts and remains. There are also Scandinavian-themed clubs in that region.

After visiting these regions and sailing to NYC, you could be certain that you visited a coastline area that the Vikings had also visited, even if scientists haven't identified the specific region where the Butternuts or Jack Pine came from. Then you can sail up the Hudson and use the Erie Canal system that runs westward through central NY State to get back to the Great Lakes.

Happy voyaging, Rognvald!!
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Old 21-09-2023, 06:04   #39
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

Wow,
You've certainly did a great job! The only problem with the trip is the Lachine Rapids on the St. Lawrence River where a traditional Viking longboat would not be able to make that passage due to depth, current, and huge boulders. However, a smaller boat of 30 feet could have been portaged beyond the rapids to continue the journey. Also, a careful playing of the tides is necessary until Montreal since there are many spots in the river with 6-8 knots and another we passed at slack tide was listed up to 12 knots on the flood/ebb in the excellent tide and current manual we purchased before the trip and was an essential planning tool.
The Vikings were the first to reach North America. Their sailing skills in open boats across the North Atlantic are nothing short of amazing. I'm certain with the advent of Lidar Radar, more sights in North America will be uncovered. Thanks for your great post!
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Old 21-09-2023, 07:53   #40
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The Vikings were the first to reach North America. Their sailing skills in open boats across the North Atlantic are nothing short of amazing. I'm certain with the advent of Lidar Radar, more sights in North America will be uncovered.
Fun idea: Amerindians were the first to reach North America, Africans may have reached it, and other Europeans like Celts may have reached it before the Norse. Vikings simply made the best-recorded, fullest-documented detailed journey to the Americas west of Iceland in literature written before Columbus.

Greek, Roman, and Celtic stories had different claims or myths about lands west across the Atlantic from the British Isles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Ireland). Theoretically, a ship of Celts or Romans could have followed a route to continental North America or Newfoundland like the Vikings, did and then returned and left the narrative in written/oral form, but without leaving an archaeological record in North America.

Obviously in 2023, the idea that some Europeans visited the continental US before Columbus would be a big deal, and the Vikings seem to be able to make the best claim for that. But in the 1st century AD, if you were a European sailor, it might not be as big a deal. Imagine that you sailed west, got to the Azores, and returned home. People might think it was kind of cool, and leave some stories about the Azores. Then imagine that you traveled farther and got to the Antilles/West Indies. When you came home, people would still think that it sounds cool, but your description would be kind of like the description of the Azores, Canaries, West Africa, so it might not even get much more attention than a trip to the Azores. This is one reason why I think that a simple journey in ancient times from Europe to the Americas might not get a ton of attention and clear documentation even if it happened. Another reason is that based on the kind of way that they passed down narratives in ancient times, the story could get mythologized even if it was a real, factual journey originally. And then after the mythologization process, modern readers would be doubtful that the trip basically happened or not. This kind of mythologization problem affected modern doubts about the Vinland Sagas too until the discovery at L'anse aux Meadows, one reason being the story about the One-Footed attacker that sounds semi-mythological.
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Old 21-09-2023, 08:47   #41
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

Hi, Rakovsky,
Recently, the "Voyage of St. Brendan" is now gaining serious academic scholarship/research while disregarding some of its more fanciful elements as St. Brendan conducting Mass on the back of a whale. I read it awhile ago but am going to give it a re-read. And, current archeological research has found that Irish Monks sailed in Currachs to the Scottish Isles and Iceland well before the Vikings. Is there anything in the universe greater than inquisitive Man? Well, perhaps an H. Uppmann 1844 Reserve cigar . . . .
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Old 21-09-2023, 12:42   #42
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Re: Second Potential Viking Site Found in Newfoundland

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Hi, Rakovsky,
Recently, the "Voyage of St. Brendan" is now gaining serious academic scholarship/research while disregarding some of its more fanciful elements as St. Brendan conducting Mass on the back of a whale. I read it awhile ago but am going to give it a re-read. And, current archeological research has found that Irish Monks sailed in Currachs to the Scottish Isles and Iceland well before the Vikings. Is there anything in the universe greater than inquisitive Man? Well, perhaps an H. Uppmann 1844 Reserve cigar . . . .
Rognvald
Reading post #40 and I started thinking of St Brenden.

The legend/story, whatever one wants to call it, would certainly fit into a story to what is now known as North America.

There are stories/reports of very early Europeans seeing people North America with red or blond hair and green or blue eyes. Did Vikings, Celts, Irish, etc., arrive far earlier than known? It does not really see that as impossible. I don't think the hard part was getting TO North America. The hard part was getting FROM North America back to Europe.

When people hear that Currachs are made from leather and wood frames, I think it minimizes the boats. I believe some of the Currachs were round and of limited use, but the Currachs used along the coast have very interesting details that seem to imply being sea kindly. They use minimal material and could be easily repaired compared to other boat construction. I have thought of using them as a dingy.

Later,
Dan
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Old 21-09-2023, 17:49   #43
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Hi, Rakovsky,
Recently, the "Voyage of St. Brendan" is now gaining serious academic scholarship/research while disregarding some of its more fanciful elements as St. Brendan conducting Mass on the back of a whale.
From what I found in the medieval version of the St. Brendan story, I don't recall anything specific saying that he went west across the Atlantic for days.

There are a line of legends/stories about Europeans sailing west to the Americas, but it's advisable that when one considers the legends, one pays attention to (A) whether these legends are before Columbus' 1492 discovery, and (B) whether they are specifically sailing a major distance directly across the Atlantic, as well as (C) whether the elements of the story are so mythological that it looks pretty doubtful, like claims about the legendary King Arthur sailing to the Americas.

So to give an example, just having a medieval story (St. Brendan's? Madocs?) about sailing around the seas in some unspecified direction to some unspecified island really isn't enough to take it as a trip to America. Similarly, in the modern period, there were English, Welsh, and Anglo/British-Americans who had a kind of vested British Isles interest in the story of Prince Madoc being about discovering the Americas. So alot of what I see about the Madoc story being in America seems to be modern creations based on what are now from the medieval period scant references to Madoc sailing around some unspecified direction.apparently. It's one thing to find a Madoc story, and maybe something else to find a Madoc story of discovering America that was penned before Columbus' discovery. I don't know if there are any of the latter category.
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Old 21-09-2023, 17:54   #44
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There are stories/reports of very early Europeans seeing people North America with red or blond hair and green or blue eyes. Did Vikings, Celts, Irish, etc., arrive far earlier than known? It does not really see that as impossible. I don't think the hard part was getting TO North America. The hard part was getting FROM North America back to Europe.
Right.
The Megalithic culture of Britain, France, and Western Europe that made stonehenge and other chamber and standing stone sites is considered a "mariner" culture from a couple thousand years into the BC period.

One curious possibility for me is that some of those "Mariners" in ancient times may have crossed the Atlantic and influenced or stimulated the Megalithic culture from before Columbus' time in New England, with a couple sites being Gungywamp, Stonehenge USA, the Upton Chamber, and the Putnam Chamber. However, we don't have Bronze Age European artifacts found in New England to my knowledge, so I'm not aware as to whether a transatlantic link is established.
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