Reply from DNR re: Guns on Boats in MD

[tropicalescape]

All US citizens traveling abroad are bound and subject to the laws of the USA..unless you renounce your citizenship....just try going where some countrys have lax laws ie Thailand where perverts play with children and see if they dont put your ass in a sling when you return...the laws of America dont go away for US citizens when they leave the country...Kill someone in Poland and run to the US and keep thinking you are ok..if they (the US has evidence you killed someone you think they let you walk... DVC

Dave[/QUOTE]

[Exile]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

All US citizens traveling abroad are bound and subject to the laws of the USA..unless you renounce your citizenship....just try going where some countrys have lax laws ie Thailand where perverts play with children and see if they dont put your ass in a sling when you return...the laws of America dont go away for US citizens when they leave the country...Kill someone in Poland and run to the US and keep thinking you are ok..if they (the US has evidence you killed someone you think they let you walk... DVC

Dave

[/QUOTE]

While not discounting the accuracy of this post, it might be better to bring the discussion back to how it may apply to US flagged cruising boats who presumably have the intention of obeying all laws of their country, state, as well as those of foreign nations. To try and summarize, the bottom line seems to be that if it is legal for you to own a firearm under US federal law, then it is legal for you to do so on your boat under federal law in any US or int'l waters. You still remain subject to any state laws, however, while within the jurisdiction of those states' waters. While the USCG cannot directly enforce those state laws, they could likely detain you & your boat until the state auths. showed up. Finally, and regardless of the flag you're flying, you are subject to the laws of a foreign nation while in the territorial waters of that nation.

Perhaps some real world experiences of cruisers traveling with firearms would be useful at this point, esp. since so many regs seem to be enforced at the whim of customs officials. With threats on the rise, the reality is that more & more cruisers will likely be carrying firearms on board, whether or not that runs afoul of other countries' laws or people's sensitivities. The practicalities (or lack thereof) vs. the politics is what would be most useful. IMHO, of course!

[h20man]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Epecially like the old ays when many carried a 25mm flare gun with a machined SS tube to fit and bored to 12ga. Shot 25mm flares, 12ga flares and a boat load of 12 shotgun shells...

a 12-18 inch piece of stainless tubing didn't look out of place on most boats.

Please be careful to note that a firearm in some countries is only half the problem. The other half is ammo. In mexico, ammo (including shotgun shells) will carry the same penalty (or free accommodation) as a firearm.....

A well trained animal will be easily able to detect GSR or ammo...

just saying......

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Actually a US flagged vessel is considered US territory no matter where it is.

Also the US Navy , and by extension the US coast Guard, have reciprocal agreements with most allies, and even some opposing countries. So except for a few cases, where there are current hostilities, (like Iran), the US Navy can reach out and touch you anywhere.

The US Navy requests permission to act in another nations waters, and it has few standing permissions, they are set up on a as required basis and they are few and far between in peacetime. Few nations allow foreign navies to act in their waters ( pass through yes, act no). IN most cases its limited to "peacetime " movements.

A vessel with a flag state is bound by the laws of its flag state, but not when operating in other nations waters, however its entitled to innocent passage. Its does not become "territory" as Territory carries diplomatic privledge. For example a US ship in port commits a crime, that prosecution of that crime is carried out under local laws not US laws. IF you commit a crime on land in a foreign and high tail it to the ship , you do not come under any protection, local police can board the ship and remove you.

Dave

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Actually a US flagged vessel is considered US territory no matter where it is.

Also the US Navy , and by extension the US coast Guard, have reciprocal agreements with most allies, and even some opposing countries. So except for a few cases, where there are current hostilities, (like Iran), the US Navy can reach out and touch you anywhere.

We look forward to the opportunity to dip our flag and salute any and all US military vessels we encounter in our travels. I confirmed with a Navy Captain at a recruiting booth at the Tall Ships in Green Bay that the military vessel is required to return the salute. Traditionally, this involves mustering the crew at the rail. If you do this, remember, they take this VERY seriously.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

All US citizens traveling abroad are bound and subject to the laws of the USA..unless you renounce your citizenship....just try going where some countrys have lax laws ie Thailand where perverts play with children and see if they dont put your ass in a sling when you return...the laws of America dont go away for US citizens when they leave the country...Kill someone in Poland and run to the US and keep thinking you are ok..if they (the US has evidence you killed someone you think they let you walk... DVC

Dave

There are laws on many countries law books that criminalise actions aboard at home. Sex trafficking genocide etc, they are specific laws not the generality. If you murder someone on Poland , the US does not try you, Poland must extradite you to stand trial in Poland, The US if it has an extradition treaty will abide by the rules of that treaty.

For example , if you buy and smoke weed in a cafe in Ansterdam, will you be prosecuted on arrival in the US, no.

[Nicholson58]

The Guys from Knight Rifles Shoot the .950 JDJ, Extended Version - YouTube

how abut this lil'ole rabbit gun?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Exile

......

Perhaps some real world experiences of cruisers traveling with firearms would be useful at this point, esp. since so many regs seem to be enforced at the whim of customs officials. With threats on the rise, the reality is that more & more cruisers will likely be carrying firearms on board, whether or not that runs afoul of other countries' laws or people's sensitivities. The practicalities (or lack thereof) vs. the politics is what would be most useful. IMHO, of course!

I related this is a previous old thread about my experiences in France. lots of hassle paperwork costs and all round nuisance. id have to say that on balance if I was to carry a firearm, ( and I dont want to), Id carry a shotgun and 00 buckshot and not declare it. But then Im not going to carry and hence its not my problem. I wouldnt carry anything like high calibre rifles and definitely not pistols.


Dave

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The US Navy requests permission to act in another nations waters, and it has few standing permissions, they are set up on a as required basis and they are few and far between in peacetime. Few nations allow foreign navies to act in their waters ( pass through yes, act no). IN most cases its limited to "peacetime " movements.

A vessel with a flag state is bound by the laws of its flag state, but not when operating in other nations waters, however its entitled to innocent passage. Its does not become "territory" as Territory carries diplomatic privledge. For example a US ship in port commits a crime, that prosecution of that crime is carried out under local laws not US laws. IF you commit a crime on land in a foreign and high tail it to the ship , you do not come under any protection, local police can board the ship and remove you.

Dave

Not true...a US flagged ship is bound by US laws and treaties even when operating in another countires waters. Yes, the Navy/USCG would need permission from the other country to enter their waters...but that's rarely a problem. I operated all throughout the Carribean and South America with those countries permissions on a regular basis. Only a few said no. Heck we even worked with the Russians during the cold war for law enforcement stuff...

You are right..the locals get first shot...but if the US wants to come grab your but on a US flagged vessel...they can.

Here's a reference...all it takes is a warrant to go further than a regular boarding to enforce ANY federal law, anywhere in the world.

THE U.S. COAST GUARD

The U.S. Coast Guard is authorized to enforce, or assist in the enforcement of, all U.S. Federal laws applicable on, over, and under the high seas and waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. These include laws which provide for the U.S. Coast Guard to exclusively act, and those which the Coast Guard enforces primarily for some other Federal agency. Generally, the Coast Guard must determine on a case-by-case basis whether it has jurisdiction. Besides determining whether it has the domestic authority to assert jurisdiction, it often must also determine whether an assertion of jurisdiction is consistent with international law. In many cases involving a foreign vessel, the Coast Guard decides whether it has jurisdiction over the vessel and its personnel based on three elements: the activities of the vessel and personnel, the location of the vessel, and the nationality of the vessel.
Two notes are warranted here. The first relates to the phrase "waters subject to United States jurisdiction." This phrase encompasses more than United States territorial waters; it also extends to those waters where the United States, pursuant to an agreement with a foreign government, has been authorized to take law enforcement action involving United States or foreign vessels. Such waters could, and in actual practice do, include foreign territorial waters.
The second point is that the Coast Guard may go aboard any United States vessel at any time, anywhere to conduct a documentation and safety inspection. A search of a U.S. vessel beyond this type of inspection is subject to limitations under the United States Constitution. If a search extends beyond this narrowly defined scope, a court may be asked to evaluate the legality of the search by balancing the individual’s right to privacy in the specific circumstances of the search against society’s interest in detecting criminal conduct.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

We look forward to the opportunity to dip our flag and salute any and all US military vessels we encounter in our travels. I confirmed with a Navy Captain at a recruiting booth at the Tall Ships in Green Bay that the military vessel is required to return the salute. Traditionally, this involves mustering the crew at the rail. If you do this, remember, they take this VERY seriously.

I'd like to hear more about this tradition! What would constitute "dipping" the flag if it's flying on a halyard 3/4 of the way up the mast from the transom? I also heard of another ancient tradition of dipping the flag for a Royal Navy vessel. I suppose it's out of respect for GB's former prowess on the seas.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by psneeld

Not true...a US flagged ship is bound by US laws and treaties even when operating in another countires waters. Yes, the Navy/USCG would need permission from the other country to enter their waters...but that's rarely a problem. I operated all throughout the Carribean and South America with those countries permissions on a regular basis. Only a few said no. Heck we even worked with the Russians during the cold war for law enforcement stuff...

You are right..the locals get first shot...but if the US wants to come grab your but on a US flagged vessel...they can.

Here's a reference...all it takes is a warrant to go further than a regular boarding to enforce ANY federal law, anywhere in the world.

THE U.S. COAST GUARD

The U.S. Coast Guard is authorized to enforce, or assist in the enforcement of, all U.S. Federal laws applicable on, over, and under the high seas and waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. These include laws which provide for the U.S. Coast Guard to exclusively act, and those which the Coast Guard enforces primarily for some other Federal agency. Generally, the Coast Guard must determine on a case-by-case basis whether it has jurisdiction. Besides determining whether it has the domestic authority to assert jurisdiction, it often must also determine whether an assertion of jurisdiction is consistent with international law. In many cases involving a foreign vessel, the Coast Guard decides whether it has jurisdiction over the vessel and its personnel based on three elements: the activities of the vessel and personnel, the location of the vessel, and the nationality of the vessel.
Two notes are warranted here. The first relates to the phrase "waters subject to United States jurisdiction." This phrase encompasses more than United States territorial waters; it also extends to those waters where the United States, pursuant to an agreement with a foreign government, has been authorized to take law enforcement action involving United States or foreign vessels. Such waters could, and in actual practice do, include foreign territorial waters.
The second point is that the Coast Guard may go aboard any United States vessel at any time, anywhere to conduct a documentation and safety inspection. A search of a U.S. vessel beyond this type of inspection is subject to limitations under the United States Constitution. If a search extends beyond this narrowly defined scope, a court may be asked to evaluate the legality of the search by balancing the individual’s right to privacy in the specific circumstances of the search against society’s interest in detecting criminal conduct.

flag states responsibilities were codified by the Geneva Convention on the law of teh sea in 1950. The US designated the USCG for that role. ( as you point out)

Secondly the key phrase is " waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.". The US cannot legally act in another countries waters without permission, even if it involves a US flag vessel. Again it must receive permission. In international waters it can do that of course. Again a US flag ship is not a US territory in the normal meaning of the word.

As to permissions , of course friendly states and even old adversaries with a common cause ( drugs etc) often recognise other navies and allow them to act and in particular engage in hot pursuit. It doesnt change the rules though.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Exile

I'd like to hear more about this tradition! What would constitute "dipping" the flag if it's flying on a halyard 3/4 of the way up the mast from the transom? I also heard of another ancient tradition of dipping the flag for a Royal Navy vessel. I suppose it's out of respect for GB's former prowess on the seas.

in my experience its a dying tradition. Ive been ignored more times then respected.


Dave

[colemj]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

All US citizens traveling abroad are bound and subject to the laws of the USA..unless you renounce your citizenship....just try going where some countrys have lax laws ie Thailand where perverts play with children and see if they dont put your ass in a sling when you return...the laws of America dont go away for US citizens when they leave the country...Kill someone in Poland and run to the US and keep thinking you are ok..if they (the US has evidence you killed someone you think they let you walk... DVC

Dave

[/QUOTE]

Again, would the US arrest me for driving on the "wrong" side of the road in Britain?

Mark

[captainKJ]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

As a US citizen you are subject to US law regardless of where your at,also illegal to ingage in any act considered in the US to be illegal regardless if it is legal in the country you are in at the time ...DVC

Can I Please have some of what you are smoking

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Exile

I'd like to hear more about this tradition! What would constitute "dipping" the flag if it's flying on a halyard 3/4 of the way up the mast from the transom? I also heard of another ancient tradition of dipping the flag for a Royal Navy vessel. I suppose it's out of respect for GB's former prowess on the seas.

dipping the flag at sea?-Other US Flag Etiquette-American Flags Forum

There are lots of Flag Ettiquite sites I ran into while looking for our ensign. Here is only one. Traditionally, the ensign was flown from the end of the gaff of the aft mast. That was generally 2/3 of the way up the rig or so. It was the place of highest honor and the best place to fly well. Dipping is to run the flag down about 1/2 way and back up. On the modern "marconi rigged vessels" the flag is to be flown about 2/3 of the way up the leech of the aft most sail since there is no gaff. It is also now understood that the ensign may fly from a staff on the transom since flying from the leech is not always practical. In this case, dipping is to remove the staff and extend it aft to a horizontal position and return.

We have Coast Guard Days in Grand Haven, Michigan each summer. This will be a great opportunity since there may be a dozen or so CG boats visiting.