Question about a repossession

[hellosailor]

Gotta agree, AFAIK there are no US federal agents that have asset seizure powers when in another country. Could be a treaty, but that would make it too easy. What you heard on the internet, usually is missing something.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

We're all commenting on something the OP claims to have read but has not provided any reference to. Essentially this information is of the quality level of "my friend's neighbour's sister said someone told them about this case where....."

Very true but that's what many forum threads are made from. It's best viewed as entertainment.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Sounds like a case of heirs property. Disposition of the boat was not probated upon an owners death.

That's what I thought but it apparently sold by the owner. I haven't heard of a probate court reaching back to undo transactions prior to death but in the bizarro world of courts anything I suppose is possible.

Perhaps if it was a probate court reaching back prior to death we all should ask for a medical report prior to buying boats or houses from anybody. Isn't it the case after all that many boats are sold because of bad health.

I would love to find out more of the facts of this case rather than hearsay from hearsay.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

That's what I thought but it apparently sold by the owner. I haven't heard of a probate court reaching back to undo transactions prior to death but in the bizarro world of courts anything I suppose is possible.

Perhaps if it was a probate court reaching back prior to death we all should ask for a medical report prior to buying boats or houses from anybody. Isn't it the case after all that many boats are sold because of bad health.

I would love to find out more of the facts of this case rather than hearsay from hearsay.

I think you read me wrong or I stated it wrong?

I meant the owner died, an heir sold it, probably a kid, without the probate court giving ownership. Other heirs came forward with claims for their share. Sucks, but that's the way it is for a buyer.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I think you read me wrong or I stated it wrong?

I meant the owner died, an heir sold it, probably a kid, without the probate court giving ownership. Other heirs came forward with claims for their share. Sucks, but that's the way it is for a buyer.

Sounds like the new boat owner has a problem. I hope for his sake the heir has enough money to pay back the boat buyer.

What would be interesting would to find out where exactly the seizure took place.

If it happened to me I would contest the seizure immediately in the courts. I would also hire a lawyer who knows probate law as well as admiralty law. I would also place a lien on the vessel and include an action for all cost recovery. If you put things on the boat this would be property that does not belong to the heirs and the court most definitely has no right to take this property.

I would question very much the legitimacy of a probate court to undo a property transaction by seizure of the property.

Should not the court be asking the heir who sold the property to give the proceeds of the sale to the court for distribution by the court.

Again if I was the new owner I would not be taking this lying down.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I think you read me wrong or I stated it wrong?

I meant the owner died, an heir sold it, probably a kid, without the probate court giving ownership. Other heirs came forward with claims for their share. Sucks, but that's the way it is for a buyer.

Can you explain how United States Federal Officers boarded and seized a boat in the BRITISH Virgin Islands? Why would he be told to keep quite? Was it a US registered vessel?

It could be that the Marshalls have broken the law in respect of wrongful search and seizure but a lot more needs to be known.

What I find very strange is that the court over 11 years didn't seek restitution from the heir who wrongly sold the vessel. Perhaps the other heirs didn't want to go after a relative but rather chose to go after the innocent and unsuspecting new boat owner.

The situation is interesting but without all of the facts it is a wast of time conjecturing.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by koawm

So I read about a man in BVI who bought his boat 11 years ago. Has the new title in hand but around Thanksgiving federal agents boarded his boat to repossess it for the 'previous' owners children. Due to legal reasons he's been advised to not comment on the situation. I'm curious how they could possibly contest his possession of the vessel after all these years. Any thoughts on how someone can do this? Could he have titled it incorrectly? Makes me nervous to sell my house to buy a boat to have some pissy relatives come back a year later to take it from me. I'm also curious how the fed's got involved. I would expect police escorting a repo man but not actual federal authorities.

"I would expect police escorting a repo man"; this in it self would be illegal (police escorting a repo man) The police have no right or jurisdiction in helping any "Repo person" do their job..This is a civil matter if in fact it was a true repo (as in someone not making payments as contracted) and not a criminal act..for the police to be legally involved a crime had to be committed..Thats why you never see police helping " Dog the bounty hunter" and explains why the bounty hunters wear those cheesy badges and credentials so as to appear to be valid officers of the law when in fact they have no power at all other than that given by ignorant people that they intimidate..

[booboo2]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

"I would expect police escorting a repo man"; this in it self would be illegal (police escorting a repo man) The police have no right or jurisdiction in helping any "Repo person" do their job..This is a civil matter if in fact it was a true repo (as in someone not making payments as contracted) and not a criminal act..for the police to be legally involved a crime had to be committed..Thats why you never see police helping " Dog the bounty hunter" and explains why the bounty hunters wear those cheesy badges and credentials so as to appear to be valid officers of the law when in fact they have no power at all other than that given by ignorant people that they intimidate..

I am not trying hijack this thread but, I must step in and make a comment.

I have been a bail bondman and bail enforcement agent (bounty hunter) for many years. Cheesy badges, really. Our badges clearly state who we are. The state I work in requires us to take continuing education every year and be recertified. Our ID is required by law. This not required in all states. You will not see Dog operating in states that have a certification process. He could not work in my state due to the fact that he is a convicted murderer. In my state we have to have a virtually spotless criminal history.

I cannot tell you how many times we have entered a house to see someone standing there with a firearm and be told the only reason they did not shoot was because they saw our badges. Cheesy or not, If my badge keeps me from getting shot, I vote for being cheesy.

As far as having no power, you have your facts all wrong. Our powers far outreach law enforcement. We have worked with the FBI, U. S. Marshals Service and many other law enforcement agencies. Many of the arrests for violent crimes, jail escapes, etc. are effected because some cheesy bounty hunter was able to do something law enforcement could not do. Not always because law enforcement was incapable but because their hands are tied with the many laws that restrict them from doing things we can. Many people will tell us things they would not tell a cop, information that helps solve many crimes.

Ignorant people, yeah, most of the people we look for are ignorant. Intimidation, you are correct we do use that as a tool when we need to, just like the police, bill collectors and many other occupations.

You may not like bail bondsmen, you may not like what we do, but, you will be damned happy we exist if you ever find yourself or a loved one in jail. Believe me, it is alot easier than you think to find yourself in jail.

Just a rant. I am sure I will be chastised for it.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

I would question very much the legitimacy of a probate court to undo a property transaction by seizure of the property.

If you "sell" something that you don't own, there is no legal sale. There is no transaction. This is no different, really, than someone selling something that they stole. They don't have the right to sell it, so the "transaction" is null and void. The "buyer" hasn't actually bought anything, and the fact that the buyer THOUGHT the transaction was perfectly legitimate is completely irrelevant.

The probate court certainly has the authority to say that this property belongs to the estate, not the individual who "sold" it, hence the sale is null and void.

This is why title insurance is sometimes a very good idea. The essence of title insurance is the title company saying, if it turns out that the seller does not have legal authority to sell this item, we will reimburse you.

[zeehag]

someone asked if brokers search liens.
NO they do NOT.
the documentation service you use to document your newly purchased boat does that.

[tropicalescape]

Originally Posted by booboo2

I am not trying hijack this thread but, I must step in and make a comment.

I have been a bail bondman and bail enforcement agent (bounty hunter) for many years. Cheesy badges, really. Our badges clearly state who we are. The state I work in requires us to take continuing education every year and be recertified. Our ID is required by law. This not required in all states. You will not see Dog operating in states that have a certification process. He could not work in my state due to the fact that he is a convicted murderer. In my state we have to have a virtually spotless criminal history.

I cannot tell you how many times we have entered a house to see someone standing there with a firearm and be told the only reason they did not shoot was because they saw our badges. Cheesy or not, If my badge keeps me from getting shot, I vote for being cheesy.

As far as having no power, you have your facts all wrong. Our powers far outreach law enforcement. We have worked with the FBI, U. S. Marshals Service and many other law enforcement agencies. Many of the arrests for violent crimes, jail escapes, etc. are effected because some cheesy bounty hunter was able to do something law enforcement could not do. Not always because law enforcement was incapable but because their hands are tied with the many laws that restrict them from doing things we can. Many people will tell us things they would not tell a cop, information that helps solve many crimes.

Ignorant people, yeah, most of the people we look for are ignorant. Intimidation, you are correct we do use that as a tool when we need to, just like the police, bill collectors and many other occupations.

You may not like bail bondsmen, you may not like what we do, but, you will be damned happy we exist if you ever find yourself or a loved one in jail. Believe me, it is alot easier than you think to find yourself in jail.

Just a rant. I am sure I will be chastised for it.

I made a mistake,it is now obvious who is "ignorant" in regard to "bounty hunters"..I was a repoman for about a year and remember getting the law involved in several cases where they would normally not have been(i used "cheesy human persuasion tactics" and a cheesy badge to do so)..A bondsman is not a repo man and so I must apologize after rethinking what you and I have stated ..It is illegal however for police to assist a "repoman" in doing their jobs...Forgive me sir (or mam) for I engaged that big ol tongue of mine before I engaged that small brain..

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

If you "sell" something that you don't own, there is no legal sale. There is no transaction. This is no different, really, than someone selling something that they stole. They don't have the right to sell it, so the "transaction" is null and void. The "buyer" hasn't actually bought anything, and the fact that the buyer THOUGHT the transaction was perfectly legitimate is completely irrelevant.

The probate court certainly has the authority to say that this property belongs to the estate, not the individual who "sold" it, hence the sale is null and void.

This is why title insurance is sometimes a very good idea. The essence of title insurance is the title company saying, if it turns out that the seller does not have legal authority to sell this item, we will reimburse you.

You are absolutely correct. It is on reflection like buying stolen property unbeknown. I would think however he would have a claim against the seller including all associated costs. But you are correct. Next boat purchase I will make sure I budget in title insurance. Unless the chain of ownership was rock solid and no liens exist.

[hellosailor]

It wouldn't be the first time that a seller FORGED someone else's signature on a bill of sale and title. Every year or two the National Nooze in the US look at "for sale" classified ads for cars in the US, and they keep finding out that 90% of them are frauds. The seller isn't the owner or the owner's relative, they're a used car dealer who usually doesn't have a business license because they're a crook, and the title they have was often UNsigned by the last title holder, with the signature now forged. Or signed over to "blank" with a matching bill of sale not possible.


So hearing a scurrilous rumor that some vague party might not have completed a proper sale a decade ago? Is almost as shocking as hearing the sun rose today. Incredible.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

It wouldn't be the first time that a seller FORGED someone else's signature on a bill of sale and title. Every year or two the National Nooze in the US look at "for sale" classified ads for cars in the US, and they keep finding out that 90% of them are frauds. The seller isn't the owner or the owner's relative, they're a used car dealer who usually doesn't have a business license because they're a crook, and the title they have was often UNsigned by the last title holder, with the signature now forged. Or signed over to "blank" with a matching bill of sale not possible.


So hearing a scurrilous rumor that some vague party might not have completed a proper sale a decade ago? Is almost as shocking as hearing the sun rose today. Incredible.

Heir's property is not a case of forgery. Someone can have a title but twenty years later great cousin so and so can say they should have been contacted. I'm in SC and my lawyer always advises title insurance, I'm not sure this is the same but sounds like it. Even title insurance, though cheap, only covers your original cost. With real property that appreciates that sucks, with a boat probably not so much.

[koawm]

Thanks for all the replies. Very interesting responses and I appreciate them. I purposely left the post vague to get a 'shotgun' view of scenarios.

First off it was the USVI not BVI. Sorry about that. Second this is the person I was reading about.

"SV TREAZZURE " arrested in CHAINS by Joe Alvarez - GoFundMe

The Treazzure first came to my attention on sailboatlistings. It was listed at almost half what I see other boats like her go for. So I googled the boat name and found Captain Joe's website saying he did charters. I thought the poor fellow might have passed away and his family was just looking for a quick sale. No way a captain would sell his lady that cheap after so many years on her unless she was damaged in some way. Then the boat disappeared from the listing. A couple weeks later I see another boat that looked like his listed again. But it was Treazzure. Now its listed at probably a third of what I see boats like her going for. After a little more digging I found Captain Joe's gofundme page and read about what happened. I feel really bad for the guy. He really loved that boat and it's been sailing under his flag for quite awhile now. That's all I know folks