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Old 01-02-2023, 11:36   #1
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Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

Here's are two interesting questions that come to mind from another thread:

Exactly what are the obligations the master of a vessel has towards someone who wishes to leave the vessel?

And what are the obligations towards someone who the master of the vessel no longer wants aboard?

Presuming no medical emergency exists, it has always been my understanding that the obligation in either case is to disembark the individual at the next port of call. But on a private vessel the "next port of call" can be a somewhat murky and flexible concept.

I have sometimes wondered what would I would do if I were to rescue some kayakers or fisherman in the apostle islands. If I were on my way to, say, Oak Island, where there is a dock but no scheduled ferry service, no cell phone coverage, really nothing but a few campsites, would I fulfill my obligation to help them out by leaving them there? Does the answer change if I encourage them to use my satphone to contact an (expensive) on-call water taxi service? It might be a week or more before a small sailboat intent on gunkholing might choose to return to a major port. Am I required to divert to Bayfield to drop them off?

Like the Exumas, the USA/Canada border waters have any number of places like this with a dock out but without any prompt, economical means by which someone might return to a major city.
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Old 01-02-2023, 11:59   #2
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

It all depends. On my friends boat anchored at Uligan island in the Maldives, the dinner conversation turned to abortion one night. The female guest crew stated that she could not spend another night on board with baby killers. They tookt her and her husband ashore, and felt no obligation to help them back to civilization. As I recall they took an open boat to an island with a ferry to the capitol, and flew home.
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Old 01-02-2023, 12:09   #3
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

If a master kicks a crew off before the previously arranged disembarking port, the master is responsible for getting them home. I'm many countries, that is a legal obligation. But if the crew leaves on their own, the master has no responsibility.

That is different from if you rescue someone. If you rescue someone, your only obligation is to take them to your next port. You do not need to divert or take them anywhere else.

I have had a few instances where crew left early. The first was a crew member I kicked off in Fiji. In Fiji, when crew disembarks everyone needs to go to immigration to update the crew list. I expected and was prepared to pay for his flight. However, he started a fight with the immigration officer, and she made my crew member call is mom to buy him a ticket.

In another case, I was waiting for a better weather window in Indonesia before heading west. My crew called me from the airport to let me know they were boarding a plane and would not be back. Thankfully officials in Indonesia were easy to work with and my having an incorrect crew list was not an issue.
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Old 01-02-2023, 12:22   #4
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

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I have sometimes wondered what would I would do if I were to rescue some kayakers or fisherman in the apostle islands. If I were on my way to, say, Oak Island, where there is a dock but no scheduled ferry service, no cell phone coverage, really nothing but a few campsites, would I fulfill my obligation to help them out by leaving them there? Does the answer change if I encourage them to use my satphone to contact an (expensive) on-call water taxi service? It might be a week or more before a small sailboat intent on gunkholing might choose to return to a major port. Am I required to divert to Bayfield to drop them off?
As I sailed away I'd remind them about the sometimes problematic bear that lives on Oak.

Anything not serious enough for the coast guard I'd offer to tow them to the nearest mainland at Frog Bay where I know there is an outfitter, or to the marina at the casino. Either way, it's only a few miles and I wouldn't think twice about doing it if they were cold/scared/hungry. In other parts of the world I'd be much more cautious, but not there.
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Old 01-02-2023, 19:55   #5
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

The answer depends on the question.
Depends on the situation,
As Master or Skipper you have the right and authority to refuse passage.

Also what would a reasonable person expect a reasonable person to do?
Some of the big depends.
Is it a commercial voyage?
Is there a contract?
Is the crew hired or is it an informal arrangement.

Or is the question about a pleasure vessel with a regular owner skipper and casual arrangement with a friend.
One thing which won’t change and will always apply. The skipper is responsible for the safety of all the persons on board while on board.
All the persons on board are also responsible for safety of all persons on board to some extent. Particularly their own safety and actions.

Why does the skipper want the person of the vessel.
Back to what would a reasonable person expect a reasonable person to do.

Why do you want someone to leave?

Ultimately if it’s your boat it’s kind of like your home, yes you can ask someone to leave.
Do you have a responsibility for the person leaving safety? yes clearly you do.
Do you have to pay for the person leaving travel? Depends, probably No.
international voyage and you have both entered another country. Other countries laws will apply.

If the person refuses to leave, Basically it’s kind of like a domestic dispute, you can call the police ect. how they will deal with it.
Who’s right who is wrong they will just try and de escalate the situation.
If you are the owner and skipper and you request the other person be removed. the police will escort the other person of the vessel at your request.
Which does not mean they will be arrested.
They may have a chance of pursuing a claim in a casual arrangement but would have to prove your actions were unreasonable.

Commercial voyage? If you are ever really bored try find and read the conditions of carriage referred to on the back of almost any ticket.
Heads the company win tails the passenger loose.

Paid crew with crew agreement, you can fire them. you will probably be required to repatriate, unless they are charged with an offence. If they are jailed probably not.

Have I ever had someone removed from a vessel, yes,
It was a commercial voyage.
Why, Domestic dispute between passengers is probably the most common reason. Particularly when alcohol and violence involved.
Other disputes, threats violence, often alcohol involved.

did we have to pay no.
They were asked to leave because they did something illegal.
The police were called and they were removed.

The police will take someone away, but only if there have cause.

Private boat two sailor have a falling out, yes you can ask someone to leave your boat.
Will police ect get involved probably not. Unless it gets out of hand.
Do you have to pay their way home, if it’s paid crew probably, if not probably not.

Hopefully most reasonable people could work this out.
Ie. taking the crew you are asking to leave to a place where travel home can be easily arranged, at reasonable cost. Helping with cost,

Telling someone to get of in the middle of nowhere with no means of accessing transportation to travel home. Most people would say was unreasonable.

Have I ever done this, Yes.

The persons had pulled a knife on a kid threatened and stole money from the the kid.
I diverted to one of the most remote posts on the inside passage and called for the police to remove them. They were arrested.

They were all crew of a FV at the end of the season. The kid was the owners kid, The two crew who were travelling home with him had spent all their cash in the bar and stole or borrowed his at knife point.
The Kid was from a well known FV. And Family.
They spent the night in jail.

The RCMP told me the prosecutor decided insufficient evidence and they were released.
They didn’t want to leave.
They were afraid to. It was a fishing community, the kids family was well known.

No fishing boat traveling down the inside passage would take them.

They had to arrange and pay for charter a float plane to come up from far enough south the locals hadn’t heard about it. To come get them.
I believe it was a very expensive flight.
Crew on a FV on this coast next season?

Normally I wouldn’t dump someone in a really remote place, not because I care about them. I don’t want to land my problem on a really remote place. So normally gett someone hauled of in a bigger place where they have facilities to deal with them.

The two guys with the knife. Got special consideration.
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Old 02-02-2023, 05:47   #6
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

The original question has many variations buried into it. If you rescue someone at sea I would NOT think dumping them on "a small island with a few campsites" counts. It would certainly not have you in the running for humanitarian of the year award. But nothing says you have to take them where they want to go, or even keep them onboard if you can transfer them safety to another vessel. Certainly if I picked up four people with a 30 foot sailboat, I'd want them OFF as soon as I could arrange it. Even if that meant asking for an air pickup by the local SAR service.

The other situation is with crew.

This is something that is frequently misunderstood in the process of checking into new countries. For us yachties, EVERYBODY on board is "crew." It matters not if you pay them, no matter what anybody else says. The only legal alternative would be to declare them as "passengers" and most of us are not driving boats certified and licensed for international passenger service, so crew it is. The Captain of the vessel who brought them into the county on his "crew list" is responsible for getting them out of the country--no matter what anybody else says. Now that responsibility might practically rest with the owner, or other party, and there are cases where you can wiggle out of it, but as far as the immigration authorities are concerned, the signature on the paperwork on the line labeled "Master" is the one they care about. This all changes for a "passenger vessel."

If you arrive in most countries by air, you need to show an out-bound ticket before you are admitted. This is usually checked by the airline before you are allowed to board. This is basically the point of the "crew list." It is the Captain's guarantee that the crew listed have passage out of the country when the boat leaves. If the boat goes to check out, and the Captain can not present passports for all of the crew, many countries will have a problem. They will want to see a copy of an airline ticket or other passage out of country in the name of the missing crew member. It is not required that the Captain BUY the ticket, just that he have it to present.

The crew member at issue here (usually) doesn't have to leave, they just have to present proof that they have the means to leave before their visa expires. Of course a crew member can also be transferred to another ship's crew list without too much trouble if both Captains show up at immigration to get both ship's crewlists updated.

If the Captain "abandons" a crew member (In the language of the IMO) basically kicking them off the boat, then the Captain is responsible for showing that crew member can get out of country. If you have "pick-up" crew onboard and the informal agreement is that THEY are responsible for their own travel arrangements, you should get them to buy a changeable, refundable ticket ahead of time and you, as the Captain, hold that ticket. This doesn't often happen, but it is the way to avoid getting stuck with the bill if the crew demands to leave before the agreed on port. It can all seem silly in the world of e-tickets and such, but these rules and procedures are very slow to adapt.

If you have someone who "jumps ship" and you can not present papers to prove their status when you check out, you definitely want to clear that up before you go to check out. It can delay your departure quite a bit.

This is the "standard" system. Different countries will have different levels of persnicketiness about it, from "don't really care", to taking it "VERY seriously". So there will be exceptions. You're life as Captain will be easier if you avoid the exceptions.

I was on a boat leaving Sint Maartin where one of the crew "jumped ship" and disappeared. It delayed our departure by many hours while responsibility for the issue was transferred from the Captain to the missing crew member who was now an "illegal immigrant" as far as the Dutch authorities were concerned. I never heard how that ended for him.
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Old 02-02-2023, 05:57   #7
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

The master of the vessel is obligated to repatriate the person to the country of their origin or of their choice if they fire the crew.

If the crew wants to hop off the boat, and they do so of their own volition and make that choice on their own, there is no obligation, but you should still be courteous.

Basically, what happened in that other thread is not something you do. Even if the master brought the person who started the thread to shore properly, it’s still there responsibility to fly that person back.
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Old 02-02-2023, 07:02   #8
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pirate Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

To my mind it depends on the circumstances under which the 'crew' join the vessel.
In the other thread the OP was joining the vessel for a sailing holiday in the Bahamas under unknown conditions... was it a pay your own way, contribute to expenses agreement.. in which case the OP screwed up by not arranging a return fare and is now venting and stamping his feet over something the police authorities see no point in pursuing by all accounts.
If I contract someone as crew for a delivery its a different ballgame.. it is with the understanding that travel, food etc will be covered by me including return fare home on completion of the voyage.
However should they choose to leave the vessel because they have had enough sea sickness, death in family, etc before the destination port that is at their own expense.. I want crew not joyriders and if they cannot accept those conditions they will not be taken on board.
One has enough to do on deliveries without the hassle/expense of finding replacement crew in say Nuku Hiva because someone decides they want to hang out on a beautiful island for several months then fly home on my dime.
One reason I don't take on 'casual crew'.. like the Canuk who jumped ship in Darwin to go 'Bush' again.. turned out he'd been deported from Oz once before.. thankfully the authorities did not jump on me.
There are many examples in CF Crew where folks join boats offering trips and it turns out the boats not seaworthy and they are just unpaid labour feeding themselves and being strung along till they get pissed off and fly home.. one has been running for at least a couple of years now..
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Old 02-02-2023, 07:16   #9
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

I have found examples of laws that apply to commercial shipping, but even some of them have exclusions for "acts of misconduct by the mariner".

I saw on a crew finding website an example contract for large yachts that included very clear wording that crew accepts they are responsible for all travel costs after leaving the boat, no matter whether it is voluntary or not.

I suspect there is some complexity here.
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Old 02-02-2023, 07:29   #10
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

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Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
This is basically the point of the "crew list." It is the Captain's guarantee that the crew listed have passage out of the country when the boat leaves. If the boat goes to check out, and the Captain can not present passports for all of the crew, many countries will have a problem.

While I understand that there is an immigration aspect to this in many cases, the same questions come up on domestic voyages. In the other thread, apparently the intent of the voyage was not to leave the Bahamas. I don't know enough about the procedures there to know whether there would have been a crew list and checking in/out of ports for a US-flagged vessel on such a voyage.


The same questions could come up with someone on a bareboat charter obtained locally or, as in my OP above, on a wholly domestic voyage never leaving the country where the boat is flagged and all crew are citizens or permanent residents.
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Old 02-02-2023, 08:27   #11
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

In the case of a rescue, under the SAR convention 1979, Chapter 1, par 1.3.2, a rescue means taking someone to a "place of safety". What is safe is apparently open to argument.


In the case of someone fired, they are entitled to repatriation under the Maritime Labour Convention.


Here is some guide, although targeted specifically for rescues in the med:
https://sea-watch.org/wp-content/upl..._Sea-Watch.pdf
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Old 02-02-2023, 09:41   #12
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

Regarding the MLC (https://www.ics-shipping.org/shippin...d-questions/):

Which Yachts are covered by the MLC?
Yachts with defined ship operations unless of traditional build, expressly excluded or not ordinarily engaged in commercial activities.

When is a ship considered ordinarily engaged in commercial activities?
This is not defined but to be determined by the flag state, and subject to the oversight of ILO Committee of Experts.

I doubt a cruiser taking on a couple of crew to help move the boat would be considered as "ordinarily engaged in commercial activities" but it's anyone's guess.
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Old 02-02-2023, 11:30   #13
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

I think there would be ethical obligations, in addition to legal obligations, in deciding what may constitute the "next port of call".
A deserted island would not do, nor an island without access to any reasonable means of communications, nor an island with a few campsites or a dock, but nothing else.
This would hold true in all cases, whether the skipper wants the crew off the boat, or the crew wants off the boat on their own, or it is a rescue situation. Ethically, I would say that the governing principle is that whoever is dropped off the boat is dropped off somewhere with reasonable and reliable communication means to eventually make it safely home. If the skipper has to alter course to find a suitable drop off location to meet those basic conditions, I would say he/she has at least an ethical responsibility to do so.
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Old 03-02-2023, 06:13   #14
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

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The master of the vessel is obligated to repatriate the person to the country of their origin or of their choice if they fire the crew.

If the crew wants to hop off the boat, and they do so of their own volition and make that choice on their own, there is no obligation, but you should still be courteous.
What you are saying in the second point there is NOT true in a country where the boat has checked in. It might make sense to you from a ethical standpoint, but it is NOT going to pass legal muster in many countries.

When you get to the immigration office to check out, and they pull up your crew list and there is a passport missing, they are going to ask where that person is. Your word that they flew home is not going to satisfy. You crew list when you checked in was your "promise" to take all those people out of the country when you left. This is something that a lot of amateur yacht skippers just do not understand.

If you as Captain are on the ball, you'll have a copy of an airline ticket issued to the missing crew member, and all will be fine. Even better if you had showed up ahead of time to correct the crew list with the crew member along, but that is not always practicable.

Without proof that they are either gone, or have the means to go, if you are lucky, the officials will be able to look up the missing passport number, and hopefully find that they boarded an outgoing flight, but if they have not, you are potentially going to have "an issue." Again, in some places this will be no issue, in others a minor issue, in yet others it will be a big deal.

You can WISH this not to be true, but I have been there and see the problems a missing crew member can cause.
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Old 03-02-2023, 06:20   #15
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Re: Obligations towards crew etc who wish to disembark or are no longer welcome

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I have found examples of laws that apply to commercial shipping, but even some of them have exclusions for "acts of misconduct by the mariner".

I saw on a crew finding website an example contract for large yachts that included very clear wording that crew accepts they are responsible for all travel costs after leaving the boat, no matter whether it is voluntary or not.

I suspect there is some complexity here.
You can put whatever you want in your contract with the crew members. But that doesn't change the fact that the authorities will expect the Ship's Master to present proof of outbound transport for the missing crew member.

If it isn't obvious, the Captain is NOT required to BUY the ticket, just show it exists. If the crew member skips out and doesn't (or can't) pay for their ticket, the Captain can wave his contract around all he wants, the immigration authorities will not care. Not their problem.

All they want is to be sure than somebody is not left behind without the resources to leave. Then it DOES become their problem, and they will not be happy.
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