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Old 02-08-2020, 04:43   #91
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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Originally Posted by Fore and Aft View Post
I think it has gone beyond that now Captain Tom, I imagine once the lawyer made contact any good will just have vanished. Now that marina manager is probably is getting hassled by the marina owners as well.
I think if he had sucked it up and done the repair he might have been found a discount on his slipping bill. I have seen similar issues resolved like that before and everyone is happy.
Cheers
Yeah, I missed that part, sorry. Jumping to litigation seems like a fairly self-defeating move. It's not likely to end well for anyone but the lawyers at this point.
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Old 02-08-2020, 04:43   #92
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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. . . I thought that leaded red brass was mostly used for pipe and plumbing fittings. Did not know it was common in structural castings. I thought silicon bronze was preferred due its greater strength in structural pieces. A quick search showed that some manufacturers are not open about which alloy they are using. C65500 silicon bronze actually is a non-tin containing copper alloy. I think it is almost universal for underwater copper based fasteners.

Yes, that's right. "Leaded Red Brass" AKA Gunmetal AKA 85-5-5-5 Bronze is the gold standard for through hulls and sea cocks and such underwater fittings. But you are right -- this is not used for fasteners or propellers as far as I know. For example, my propeller is made of "Superston" 75% copper, 3% iron, 8% aluminum, 2% tin, 12% manganese.



I think propeller shaft struts are often made from Manganese Bronze AKA Leaded Manganese Bronze Alloy AKA High Strength Yellow Brass, like C86500, which is 55-60% copper with 36%-40% zinc and small amounts of tin and manganese.


Propeller shafts are often made from Tobin Bronze AKA Naval Brass, which is 59%-62% copper, and 40-ish percent zinc, with small amounts of tin, lead, and iron.


C65500 is 3 or 4% silicon, with a percent or so of zinc and a bit of lead and iron. Called "high silicon bronze" or "silicon brass".



The words "brass" vs "bronze" have almost no meaning in the context of boat fittings.
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Old 02-08-2020, 05:06   #93
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

Looks like it was previously broken and there was a not so good weld applied.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:01   #94
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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Originally Posted by SailSummerDaze View Post
Thank you for the continued feedback. Seems my best bet is to cross my fingers and hope the marina has some compassion.

Good news is the repair is complete and SummerDaze will be wet again soon.

Always an adventure and forever a learning experience.

Greatly appreciate this community already :-)


From one of your earlier posts in this thread I think youíve learned the essential lesson from this that you canít assume that deckhands have any knowledge or training, or that they are going to do anything even helpful, and sometimes will do things that are counterproductive. Now that youíve unfortunately learned this the hard way, make sure that your crew is aware of that too. Remind them that as you approach the dock, YOU are still responsible and in command of your vessel no matter what the dock hand says or wants them to do.

The most common problem Iíve run into is that dockhands always want your crew to throw them a bow line rather than a spring, and once itís in their hand they want to yank on it or secure it to a cleat while youíre still moving, kicking your stern away from the dock and possibly into a boat in the adjacent slip, and banging your bow into the dock. Then they apologize, which does nothing to fix the ding(s) in your paint. So, as another poster advised, whenever possible itís best to decline their ďhelpĒ and dock with only the assistance of your own crew that you have had a chance to make a plan with. Youíre in charge of your boat and that doesnít change as you approach a dock. Itís good to be polite about how you remind the dockhand of that but if polite doesnít seem to be getting the point across.....
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:30   #95
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

Please read post #59 by Captain Rakstis again. This is excellent advice.
The strut is not the only indication your boat will require some serious work. Please have a competent person examine the bolt heads and the prop hub.
No one wants to be the bearer of bad news but donít shoot the messenger.
Good quality bronze bends and welds nicely. Iíd be very cautious if anyone states they can salvage this strut. Withdraw your case and find a good boatyard.
Sorry for your troubles.
Kind regards, Mark the manatee
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:32   #96
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

I was arriving at my marina to prepare my boat for launch when approached by the marina manager. He apologized for one of his fork lifts having hit my rudder and taking a notch out of it and said that he had hired a fiberglass guy to fix it immediately, at the marina's expense.
The honourable thing to do.

He did a GREAT job, and I subsequently hired the fiberglass guy to install a bow thruster.

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Old 02-08-2020, 06:51   #97
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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I was arriving at my marina to prepare my boat for launch when approached by the marina manager. He apologized for one of his fork lifts having hit my rudder and taking a notch out of it and said that he had hired a fiberglass guy to fix it immediately, at the marina's expense.
The honourable thing to do.

It's different when the boat is on the hard (or tied up) and not being maneuvered under your command.


If your boat is tied up and a marina employee bangs into it with a skiff, or if a forklift running down the dock snags a shroud, or whatever, then the marina is definitely responsible, and there is nothing wrong with demanding compensation.


The present case however involves a mistake made by someone helping the owner with a docking maneuver. The captain is responsible for all the actions of anyone under his command, or whom he allows to help. So this is a very different case.


Besides that, it looks like there was a pre-existing condition with that strut (and I agree with those who say it should be thrown away). As several people have correctly stated, that strut would not snap like that unless it was severely dezincified. Good bronze will bend. Once bronze gets into that state, it is no longer bronze -- it's spongy brittle copper, and not fit for service. It should be thrown away, and not welded. A new one will run about a grand depending on the size, i.e. one "boat buck" or one "boat unit".



The OP should take full ownership of the situation and stop trying to find someone to blame. Shirt like this may happen even several times a year, in one's first years boating -- goes with the territory. One boat unit is an almost trivial scale for such a thing. Mess up a docking maneuver and take out someone's pushpit and you might be looking at ten of those. Just for example.
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:54   #98
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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Originally Posted by Manateeman View Post
Please read post #59 by Captain Rakstis again. This is excellent advice.
The strut is not the only indication your boat will require some serious work. Please have a competent person examine the bolt heads and the prop hub.
No one wants to be the bearer of bad news but donít shoot the messenger.
Good quality bronze bends and welds nicely. Iíd be very cautious if anyone states they can salvage this strut. Withdraw your case and find a good boatyard.
Sorry for your troubles.
Kind regards, Mark the manatee

This
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:56   #99
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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No doubt. But had the strut not been badly corroded, it wouldn't have broken. And let's face it, that's the major part of the repair. In fact, I'm a little surprised that a welder would even take this job. I would not be surprised if the strut fails again down the road somewhere.

And this


I would only state the last sentence more strongly -- a badly dezincified strut cannot be repaired to any acceptable level of strength. It WILL fail.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:43   #100
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

Will be interesting to see what, if anything happens from the OP's spending $80 to file in small claims court . . . . He has a serious burden of proof to convince any judge that the marina should pay IMHO . . .

My comments to the OP, for what they are worth:
  • You lucked out in that the obviously compromised strut failed right there at the marina, and not off shore, or in the boonies.
  • You would have to have replaced the compromised strut anyway, probably sooner rather than later.
  • It would behoove you to have a competent SURVEY of the boat prior to purchasing your NEXT boat. Survey would have been about the same, or less than the cost of the strut, and you could have negotiated a reduction in price due to compromised prop, strut, and possibly thru hull fittings.
  • I only trust dock handlers who have $$ in the game, ie; my wife.
  • In litigation, the only winners are the lawyers.
  • This is not going to be your last Ah S**T in your boating experience.
  • $900.00 hurts, but a lot less than it will hurt if you go all legal on the marina . . .
Sorry this happened, but try not to let it sour you on boating.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:24   #101
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

Capt VR here again,
It does amaze me that we get so many answers to some of the simplest questions.
Most of them being wrong! To this day I wonder why ABYC does not make an owners
manual to basic questions and safety. I know my Surveyors manual is 5" thick.
Owners really could use professional guidance from ABYC.
1. Most used bronze in the marine trade is silicon bronze with a 12-13% tin, not zinc.
Trace amount of zinc, usually less than 3%
2. Boats don't get electrolysis, unless you have hairs on your boat growing where you
don't want them to grow.
3. The term, "electrolysis" is wrongly applied to stray current.
4. For those of you that think I'm wrong, look up the different type of corrosion. You
will not find electrolysis. Look up ABYC or any qualified industry standard, you will
not find electrolysis in there for a corrosion causing problem.
5. Most degradation is stray current corrosion, this is what most people use the term
"electrolysis" Most stray current comes from dockside power. A boat 2-3 boats down
from you has a grounding problem, closing the circuit on his boat causes a slight
positive charge to go down his green earth ground on his 110v system, comes aboard
your boat on your 110v green wire earth connection and mingles amongst your green
bond/ground wires that should not be connected.
Then goes out to your under water hardware. This eats up your zinc's and causes the
degradation to your props, rudders, shafts and struts. After surveying for a number of
decades, I'v found most boats with eaten away bronze is from a surrounding boat, not
from the boat with the damage. That's when you change slips that you've had or get
a new neighbor within 50' or so, you should have your boat checked by a shop with a
galvanometer to check polarities and for stray current.
6. Breaking a liquid into component or removing hair is electrolysis, not corrosion.
7. Zinc's - You all should have an 8-10 ga green bond wire going to all your underwater
hardware, this is your bonding system. All should be tied in together. You should
never tie this bonding system to the green ground on the 110v system. Reason one,
this opens the path for a bad neutral to ground 110v to your bonding system which
could kill someone.
8. The man with the broken strut never mentioned his bonding system. A lot of people
do not have a zinc on their struts. But one of those bolts are tagged into the bonding
system inside the hull and get protection from other zincs in the system. This bolt
should be pulled and cleaned to insure good contact with the strut at least yearly, I
tag to two bolts should I loose continuity to one of the bolts. I personally on all my
boats have installed a 4X8 zinc for a master zinc in addition to all the individual zinc's
in the bonding system.
Take it to the bank, SILICON BRONZE is the most used alloy for underwater hardware on a boat. Highly corrosion resistant and almost as strong as steel...
Capt. Vince Rakstis, Ret. MS St.Petersburg, Fl. "Old School Shipwright"
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:54   #102
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

CaptVR here, one more time.
Anyone that keeps their boat in a marina for months or years on end, and they know there system is in good condition and wiring correct.
You should ad an ISOLATION TRANSFORMER to your 110 - 220 VAC system. This will insure that you will not get degradation stray current to your boat.
These can be had for$50 - about $500. Depending on your power needs and complexity. Most standard with a single 120v 30 amp service would run around $100. plus install. Simple systems are a simple install, but remember your dealing with high voltage and can get serious real quick. My advise, if you do it yourself, have a qualified shop come out and check all electrical on board as well as a dock slip. I'm shooting from the hip, but a shop tech should not take more than about a half hour for the checks, $150 would pay for itself in property protection as well as personal safety.
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:08   #103
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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. . . 1. Most used bronze in the marine trade is silicon bronze with a 12-13% tin, not zinc.. .
Take it to the bank, SILICON BRONZE is the most used alloy for underwater hardware on a boat. Highly corrosion resistant and almost as strong as steel...

I've rarely seen Silicon Bronze used for anything other than fasteners, and I've never seen Silicon Bronze with more than a trace amount of Sn (tin) used for marine hardware. The most common type of Silicon Bronze, C65500, has 1.5% Zn and no Sn. C87200 is about 5% Zn and 1% Sn. C87600 has no Sn. Do you have a CDN number for this 12-13% Sn Silicon Bronze? I believe that amount of tin would make it a Tin Bronze, not Silicon Bronze, and none of the Tin Bronzes I know has more than tiny traces of silicon. Will expand my knowledge; I've never heard of it.



That strut is in any case almost certainly not any kind of Silicon Bronze -- they are all made of Manganese Bronze for strength.
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:37   #104
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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for decades, I'v found most boats with eaten away bronze is from a surrounding boat, not from the boat with the damage.

Take it to the bank, SILICON BRONZE is the most used alloy for underwater hardware on a boat. Highly corrosion resistant and almost as strong as steel...
Capt. Vince Rakstis, Ret. MS St.Petersburg, Fl. "Old School Shipwright"
As a retired Certified Marine Corrosion Analyst I've found that 99% of boats suffering from stray current corrosion are the source of their own issues.

Silicon bronze is a terrific material for under water use partly due t on pleasure craft. The vast majority of pleasurecraft "bronze" (struts, rudders, propellers) are "manganese bronze" which is actually classed as a brass due to it's high zinc content (25 -35% depending on the mill).

"Manganese bronze" suffers from dezincification. Silicon bronze can lose it's 1.5% of zinc and be quite unaffected.

The OP's strut and propeller must be manganese bronze as silicon bronze will never suffer from that extent of dezincification.
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:44   #105
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Re: New Boater - is it normal protocol for a marina to not cover damages from dock ha

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As a retired Certified Marine Corrosion Analyst I've found that 99% of boats suffering from stray current corrosion are the source of their own issues.
This has been my experience as well. I've had clients lose props while underway because they refused to heed my advice about having an electrician suss out the source of their electrolytic corrosion, believing "the stinkpot next door" to be the cause. It almost never is.
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