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Old 07-06-2019, 10:48   #16
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

The US has been backsliding into third-world territory for its common citizens for many decades.

Only the wealthy have as good a standard of living as the other earlier-developed nations.

https://bigthink.com/politics-curren...llbeing-budget
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:48   #17
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Originally Posted by Hardhead View Post
This doesn't sound really great. No one knows what the impact on the food chain will be. Plenty of bottled water to pay for though, and no one needs to drink out of a tap or jug anymore like in the 80's, so that's a real plus for the standard of living at least.


https://www.wired.com/story/monterey-bay-microplastic/
I don't love plastics in the ocean more than any sailor. All that junk mostly from China and India is disgusting. BUT I think I know microplastics are not poisonous because nobody has produced a dead fish or mammal victim and I'm sure some concerned scientists have tried. That is why rational folks worry about real issues such as lead pollution resulting in poisonous fish rather than hypothesised dangers. Fact-- microplastics are in the oceans in large amounts. Unsupported theory-- that is a danger to the environment.
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:55   #18
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Originally Posted by fivecapes View Post
What good is proof if it doesn't conform to your closed mind you probably won't believe it anyway?
Infantile emotions are never a substitute for rational analysis. Has anyone force fed rats large amounts of microplastics to see what happens? Unlike unsupportable global warming model based theories, empirical evidence on the dangers of microplastics should be easily obtained. That is how we determined lead based paint can poison kids.
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Old 07-06-2019, 13:23   #19
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

Well just because we have not yet established ("proven") plastics are harmful to ingest or inhale

does not mean we won't do so in the future.

I doubt it did this fellow much good

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/w...ead-italy.html
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Old 07-06-2019, 13:29   #20
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Originally Posted by Dave22q View Post
Infantile emotions are never a substitute for rational analysis. Has anyone force fed rats large amounts of microplastics to see what happens? Unlike unsupportable global warming model based theories, empirical evidence on the dangers of microplastics should be easily obtained. That is how we determined lead based paint can poison kids.
You have to be joking right now. There are massive amounts of pictures, studies, documentaries, scientific papers, etc. that you should really look into rather than only watching Fox "News." As said before, and I paraphrase, open your mind and get a better picture of whats actually happening in the world.

Unless your just trolling. Then good job, you got me.
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Old 07-06-2019, 15:56   #21
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Originally Posted by leandroflaherty View Post
Bottled water is almost always worse than local tap water. It actually contains a large amount of micro plastics from the container it sits in, and its chemical leaching. Then there's the single use and its inevitable end in a landfill or the ocean. Dont use bottled water unless its an emergency. Dont be part of the problem. Reusable water bottles and a water filter from the tap (or watermaker / rain) is the way to go.


As for clothing, yes, tons of plastic ends up in our water supply from the synthetic fibers breaking down. Outside of extreme applications, like sports wear, its foolish to not use natural fibers, cotton, wool, linen, etc.


The only reason all this plastic is there is because of short sighted profit $$. Shame their use and lead by example. When regular people demand (by paying for it in their daily lives) sustainable green alternatives its when industry will respond.
Being an old codger who was born during WW2 I lived through the evolution of the plastics age. Whilst under the capitalist system profit is a major motivator it has proved to be the system which delivers the most benefits to the most people and consequently I tend to the opinion that we are stuck with it.

However, whilst the profit motive is a significant driver of the introduction of new materials and products it shares responsibility with other factors such as novelty and convenience.

Today it is hard to imagine that beer cans were not always around but I can recall their introduction and the enthusiasm with which they were taken up.

Prior to the alloy can beer was purchased in tall, long necked glass bottles. They were heavy, difficult to cool, required the use of glasses for consumption (Among polite society anyway) difficult to dispose of and having poor packing density. A dozen bottles came in a wooden crate and if you wanted more than one crate you pretty neer needed a ute (pickup) to cart them home.

In contrast; you could get the same volume of beer in one carton and fit two or more in the boot (trunk), a carton of cans could be thrown into a tub , convenient to the BBQ with a bag of ice and will cool quickly, a can is one serving size and no washing up of glasses is required.

As creatures largely motivated by curiosity we were very likely to grab the first can for it's novelty and then learning the convenience of beer in a can stay with it until it becomes a habit.

We cannot blame the robber baron capitalists and their dratted profit motive for everything, we all share the blame. Greed for profit plays it's part as does greed for novelty and convenience.
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Old 07-06-2019, 17:29   #22
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

I read recently of a type of bacteria that decomposes and consumes microplastics. The claim of microplastic hanging around for thousands of years is likely nonsense. Most plastics, regardless of size, is nontoxic. The porosity of plastic is nil as compared with charcoal, so adsorption of heavy metals and other pollutant may not be valid. All mineral or organic micro particles have a high surface to volume area so transmitting "bad things" is not an especial valid fear. There is a distinct possibility this subject is being exaggerated by alarmist angling for more research grants. I don't think this subject should qualify as the "toxin-du-jour", but people crave new things to fear. It does qualify as a pollutant, but it should occupy a spot much further down a list of environmental priorities.
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Old 07-06-2019, 18:18   #23
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Originally Posted by Dave22q View Post
I would be much more impressed if proof presented that consuming microplastics is harmful to man or beast. Until that day I put it with global warming, extinction of polar bears, co2 poisoning/pollution and other pseudo-scientific fake news stories.
well considering this is the only planet and home we know of...dont you think it would be smart and prudent to err on the side of caution? do you really need to see it all decimated and destroyed before your convinced its not fake?
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Old 07-06-2019, 18:36   #24
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave22q View Post
Infantile emotions are never a substitute for rational analysis. Has anyone force fed rats large amounts of microplastics to see what happens? Unlike unsupportable global warming model based theories, empirical evidence on the dangers of microplastics should be easily obtained. That is how we determined lead based paint can poison kids.
YES.
Animals that ingest larger plastic particles are adversely affected. A good example is the dying whale found last year with 30 plastic bags in its stomach in Western Norway. Plastic debris blocked its intestines so the whale was no longer able to digest food. < https://phys.org/news/2017-02-norway...-stranded.html >
Lab experiments show that microplastics can also be harmful to animals like copepods, which are small crustaceans. When they fill up their stomachs with microplastics they are less able to take in other nutrients, slowing down their growth and development.
Experiments with copepods, oysters, scampi and crabs show that marine animals consume less food when they ingest microplastics. This reduces their energy levels, which in turn can lead to a lower immune response, less growth and fewer offspring.
Chemicals leached from plastics can cause hormonal disturbances that result in fewer offspring, abnormal development and disease.
Microplastics, including microfibers, could cause large-scale harm by introducing toxins found in waterways (including the legacy industrial contaminants PCB and DDT) into the food chain

For instance:

This study found that worms feeding in highly contaminated ocean sediment ate less and had lower energy levels.
“Microplastic ingestion decreases energy reserves in marine worms” ~ Stephanie L. Wright et al.
https://www.cell.com/current-biology...822(13)01343-2

This study established, for the first time, that ingesting microplastics can transfer pollutants and additives to worms, reducing health and biodiversity.
“Microplastic Moves Pollutants and Additives to Worms, Reducing Functions Linked to Health and Biodiversity” ~ Mark Anthony Browne et al.
https://www.cell.com/current-biology...822(13)01253-0

These researchers found that microfibers harmed Ceriodaphnia dubia, a freshwater crustacean, more than microbeads did. Complete mortality occurred at lower concentrations of microfibers than of microbeads; at sublethal concentrations, the crustaceans showed more severe stunted growth and reduced reproduction when exposed to fiber than when exposed to beads. The researchers hypothesized that the beads harmed the organisms by filling their guts without providing nutrition, while the fibers entangled, exhausted, immobilized and deformed them.
“Impact of Microplastic Beads and Fibers on Waterflea (Ceriodaphnia dubia) Survival, Growth, and Reproduction: Implications of Single and Mixture Exposures” ~ Shima Ziajahromi et al.
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.est.7b03574


“Respiratorydiseasecausedbysyntheticfibres:anewocc upationaldisease1J.CORTEZPIMENTEL,
“Mounting microplastic pollution harms 'earthworms of the sea' – report”

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...rms-sea-oceans

We Know Plastic Is Harming Marine Life. What About Us?
“... Experiments show that microplastics damage aquatic creatures, as well as turtles and birds: They block digestive tracts, diminish the urge to eat, and alter feeding behavior, all of which reduce growth and reproductive output. Their stomachs stuffed with plastic, some species starve and die ...”
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...microplastics/

“Odours from marine plastic debris induce food search behaviours in a forage fish.” ~ Savoca MS et al.”... Many species of marine fish (more than 50) ingest plastic debris. Ingested plastic has a variety of lethal and sublethal impacts and can be a route for bioaccumulation of toxic compounds throughout the food web ...”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28814656 https://www.nationalgeographic.com/m...microplastics/

“... Though there's little known about the effect on plants or on the wider food chain, studies have shown that earthworms exposed to microplastics in soil have increased gut inflammation, slower growth and higher mortality ...”

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/22/healt...ntl/index.html

“... there are two main effects that have been observed in sea life: structural toxicity, when plastic literally blocks the gills or the stomach of a fish, convincing the animal that it's full and causing it to starve to death; and exposure to endocrine-disrupting chemicals that can have other effects on the body ...”



Gotta run. Raptors/Warriors coming on. Go Raptors!

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Old 07-06-2019, 18:37   #25
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

The problem is that plastics in oceans or in food (you may have read we eat an average of 50k microplstic pieces a year) bother maybe 1% of the population.


Now we stand no chance against 100% of the population doing the damage.


You will just worry yourselves to death, my dear tree huggin' 1% of voters.



I stopped worrying about stuff like that and simply throw everything overboard now. 1% less or more makes virtually no difference.


b.
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Old 07-06-2019, 20:22   #26
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Originally Posted by Dave22q View Post
Infantile emotions are never a substitute for rational analysis. Has anyone force fed rats large amounts of microplastics to see what happens? Unlike unsupportable global warming model based theories, empirical evidence on the dangers of microplastics should be easily obtained. That is how we determined lead based paint can poison kids.
I don't think you need to force feed the little mongrels.

I keep a reserve stock of food on the boat most of which is pulses like red beans and chick peas. On my previous boat I stored it in large Tupperwear containers.

I picked up a rat in Exmouth in Western Australia and had a devil of a time getting rid of it until in desperation I used baits. Anyway the damned rat had chewed it's way down through the top of all the Tupperwear containers and chewed open every packet in them.

Prior to this I was of the opinion that nothing except fire would destroy Tupperwear it being of an age when they really knew how to manufacture a tough plastic, you know, the sort of thing which could resist a teething infant.

What I found very interesting was that whilst a considerable quantity of plastic had been chewed up there was no plastic detritus remaining and consequently I assumed the rat had consumed it.

Hence the proferment that you don't have to force feed rats plastic.
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Old 07-06-2019, 20:49   #27
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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... BUT I think I know microplastics are not poisonous because nobody has produced a dead fish or mammal victim and I'm sure some concerned scientists have tried...
There are several plastic substrates that can cause at least endocrine disruption in at least mammals while I wouldn't characterize the people who study this stuff to be "concerned scientists" (at least from an environmentalist standpoint).
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Old 07-06-2019, 21:08   #28
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Infantile emotions are never a substitute for rational analysis.
ad hominem attacks is the refuge of someone with nothing to say. It was a simple question that required a 'yes' or 'no' answer, why so defensive? I'm always happy to be proven wrong with a cogent argument.

Has anyone force fed rats large amounts of microplastics to see what happens? Unlike unsupportable global warming model based theories, empirical evidence on the dangers of microplastics should be easily obtained.
See Gord above. Also https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5832226/ You're right there, credible evidence is easy to obtain.

That is how we determined lead based paint can poison kids.
Lead was already known to be poisonous for several centuries yet you were only convinced after the 1978 lead paint ban? Look up history of lead poisoning. Far more insidious was leaded gasoline which took another 18 years before being phased out with much gnashing of teeth. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...00024-0125.pdf ..."the persistence of lead toxicity in the face of the vast amount of information about where it is, what it does, and how to get rid of it is a modern riddle." Maybe people innately just don't mind being poisoned.
Point is, it took overwhelming evidence over several centuries to prosecute an obvious toxin. And if you think ingesting indigestible man made hydrocarbon byproduct is hunky dory for you and me and every living creature just because you can't see or refuse to see the effects now, see above re lead. Just to keep this a sailing thread, the Franklin expedition was lost in 1841, they thought their lead sealed canned food wasn't poisonous at first and then they chose to eat each other instead. Not saying that microplastics is the new lead, but let's not dismiss this so lightly.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:00   #29
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

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Originally Posted by Hardhead View Post
This doesn't sound really great. No one knows what the impact on the food chain will be. Plenty of bottled water to pay for though, and no one needs to drink out of a tap or jug anymore like in the 80's, so that's a real plus for the standard of living at least.


https://www.wired.com/story/monterey-bay-microplastic/
Before plastic bottled water was available we never got sick from drinking from a canteen or thermos. Now everyone thinks they must have special water. It's BS. Tap water, except for rare known areas, US and Europe is fine.
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:13   #30
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Re: Microplastics in the sea

For decades now, many Americans' water supply have violated the EPA standards set by the Safe Drinking Water Act, mostly low-income neighborhoods.

Over 40 million citizens in 18,000 communities is the current guesstimate.

Nestle is not battling this trend.
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