Lets have a friendly discussion about the Rules of the Road

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Snore

That’s a BIG negatory skipper. The simplest example is a sailing vessel in a channel being overtaken by a vessel constrained by draft is a give way vessel.

Practical example a sailboat leaving Gov cut Miami is never standon to the cargo ship passing it.

The overtaken rule is within the same “class” of vessel (constrained, restricted, etc) and below (sail vs power) it does not apply to vessels above in the pecking order (sail vs NUC or constrained).

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Please lets keep this thread friendly and no insulting.

Excellent idea in the spirit of a new year.

Then you said this:

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

The USCG COLREGS are written for...

Why would I be the slightest bit interested in USCG Colregs?

Being perdantic perhaps you meant "The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea".

After all if you are going to have a useful debate then words matter. So would you like your title amended from Rules of the Road? because the rules have nothing to do with roads and the rules for roads nothing to do with vessels.

Also do you really mean colregs? what are these collision regulations? are they something the US teaches its Navy? surely anti collision regulations would have a clearer meaning if IRPCS is a bit of a mouthful. Again words will matter in this discussion.

Pete

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Montanan

That being said, it is good manners and practice for sailing vessels to avoid interfering with fishing when it is apparent there is fishing apparatus deployed, such as trolling and when course can be altered to give way to the fisherpersons be the fisherpersons' boaters or shoreline. We are typically talking about adjusting course by few tens of yards unless the fisherpersons are deploying surface or near surface lures. Fisherpersons deploying in restricted water channels of course are faced with boats crossing their lines routinely. The major difference is that a deep keeled sailboat can snag towed lines more readily than a shallower draft vessel.

That's a nice point to make.

We only fish one specific and relatively short season here in the Chesapeake, but when we're out we're trolling 18 lines with a couple hundred $$ of tackle in the water, usually at about 2.5 kts on one engine controlled by a trolling valve. Can't speed up or slow down very much (trolling valve... and can't let the lures hit bottom), can't turn sharply without gumming up the whole works...

All that in no way affects our position in the COLREGS pecking order; we're just a power boat.

But it does help VERY MUCH when sailors cut us some slack, and we do very much appreciate it!

FWIW, it also helps when sailors make enough of an adjustment to be easily and unambiguously interpreted from our vantage point. It's common that I'll make a slight course adjustment to avoid an approaching sailboat... and then watch that sailor turn into the path I just selected to avoid him. Again and again. I know much of that is simply the transitory affect of wind on his sails, but it can certainly cause some anxiety...

Anyway, thanks for making the point.

-Chris

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Snore

That’s a BIG negatory skipper. The simplest example is a sailing vessel in a channel being overtaken by a vessel constrained by draft is a give way vessel.

Practical example a sailboat leaving Gov cut Miami is never standon to the cargo ship passing it.

The overtaken rule is within the same “class” of vessel (constrained, restricted, etc) and below (sail vs power) it does not apply to vessels above in the pecking order (sail vs NUC or constrained).

Rule 13 is very clear.
1. No exceptions for constrained by draft, channels, etc
2. The overtaken rule does not say anything about only applying to ships of the same class.

The best way to think about it is the vessel that is overtaking another vessel does not have to overtake.
It can always slow down and not overtake.

RULE 13 Overtaking
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.
(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she if overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly. (d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
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[Snore]

Originally Posted by Captain Graham

Rule 13 is very clear.

1. No exceptions for constrained by draft, channels, etc

2. The overtaken rule does not say anything about only applying to ships of the same class.



The best way to think about it is the vessel that is overtaking another vessel does not have to overtake.

It can always slow down and not overtake.



RULE 13 Overtaking

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she if overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly. (d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

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If you are going to say I am wrong, please do your homework! The cited text specifically calls Rule B. Did you read it? Here is a link https://www.starpath.com/navrules/COLREGS_Part_B.pdf

Only a fool would impede a large vessel on Gov Cut or any other tight channel.

Are you really a marine service provider? Do you really have a license? This is the second time you have authoritatively posted misinformation!

[philiosophy]

Common sense will usually be a great help in these situations. For instance...Unless you are a sailboat with no engine it is usually pretty easy to start that engine up to help avoid a close quarters situation. No matter what the pecking order is.I have been told by a number of sea plane pilots they would much prefer you to continue on your course and speed and let them decide where and when to land or take off.
In the end the unspoken rule of tonnage may well be the most important. What good is it to have had the right of way if you end up on the bottom? Another good idea and I believe is the law...Keep channel 16 on so other vessels can call you. Also good to make contact with any vessels you are legitimately concerned about early to avoid confusion. Make your course changes at least 20 degrees so as to make very clear your intensions.

[CaptTom]

Are we talking Rule 9 (International Only) now? A vessel less than 20 meters "shall not impede" a vessel which can only operate in the narrow channel or fairway.

Other than that, I can't find where Rule 13 would allow the overtaking vessel to be anything but give-way. It even says "(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules 4-18, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken."

Am I missing something?

[sy_gilana]

I'm sorry, I've tried and tried, but cannot think of any situation where a NUC will overtake anything.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by Snore

If you are going to say I am wrong, please do your homework! The cited text specifically calls Rule B. Did you read it? Here is a link https://www.starpath.com/navrules/COLREGS_Part_B.pdf

Only a fool would impede a large vessel on Gov Cut or any other tight channel.

Are you really a marine service provider? Do you really have a license? This is the second time you have authoritatively posted misinformation!

Thank you for the kind words.

Your understanding of Overtaking Rule 13 is wrong.

If you are in any vessel and another vessel of any kind comes up behind you and wants to overtake your vessel the vessel doing the overtaking shall keep out of the way of the vessel it is overtaking.

The vessel coming up from behind can not just push other vessels out of the way.

[morribabes]

I don't have extensive deep water sailing experience, mainly a coastal sailor, but have always treated the colregs as advisory, in that I will always act as if the other guy hasn't seen me, or is having a bad day. I'm on my boat to have fun, and see no advantage in shouting the odds with anybody else who might be struggling to make a deadline, or a living. I can take the time to stay out of his way, whoever he is.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by sy_gilana

I'm sorry, I've tried and tried, but cannot think of any situation where a NUC will overtake anything.

Engine controls broke and stuck in forward gear, with steering jammed that would qualify as NUC.

[Captain Graham]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

I'm with Captain Graham on rule 13 and it's one that causes a lot of debate. Sometimes heated!!

I see what you mean.

[Paul Howard]

A ColRegs debate now ongoing in my area is regarding rowing shells and paddled 20person dragon boats vs. sailboats. Our sailing club is in semi-protected bay with several sailing clubs, a marina of mostly power boats and rowing and dragon boat clubs. We must pass the rowing clubs and the area they practice in to get to open water. I maintain that rowed eight person shells have more power and more reliable power than a sailing vessel under sail in our area of shifty wind and light winds. They think sailboats should give way to them as they consider themselves restricted in their ability to maneuver. My 37ft catamaran has two 15hp. engines for a total of 30hp for 10,000lbs displacement. A eight person rowing shell can weight a ton fully crewed, but a fully trained male rower can develop 0.7hp, a female can develop about 0.5hp. Thus a male 8 has 5.6hp per ton and can go at a speed of up to 10knots. Thus they have a similar hp per ton when I am motoring, but I can go at a max of slightly over 7knots. When I am sailing in light winds and flat water (when the rowers are most prevalent and wide spread and going fastest) I often am doing less than five knots and, in the changeable winds in the restricted area, may occasionally be without steerage. Similar situation with the 20 paddler dragon boats.

The ColRegs do not address this sail vs. rowers and paddlers right of way, the only mention of oar powered vessels is in the section on Lights.

The Thames River Authority (London, England) considers rowed and paddled vessels as power-driven vessels by local ordinance and insist they give way to sailing vessels under sail only.

[boatman61]

So basically what you are saying is if something like the cross channel RoRo is travelling down the narrow channel entering or leaving Poole and comes up on a sailing vessel tacking up the channel ahead of him in the same direction he must slow down thus losing steerage way so the sailboat may continue regardless of the fact this could put him aground on either side of the channel.
I dont think so..

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Snore

If you are going to say I am wrong, please do your homework! The cited text specifically calls Rule B. Did you read it? Here is a link https://www.starpath.com/navrules/COLREGS_Part_B.pdf

Only a fool would impede a large vessel on Gov Cut or any other tight channel.

Are you really a marine service provider? Do you really have a license? This is the second time you have authoritatively posted misinformation! Let us recall the title of this thread. "Let's have a friendly discussion . . ."
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There is guidance as to the specific situation of overtaking in a narrow channel. Rule 9, (a), (b) and (e) seemingly most relevant as to slow sailboats and large ships sharing narrow channels. One needs to communicate between vessels, especially if the overtaking is ill advised given the circumstances. If the to be overtaken vessel is not in agreement with being overtaken, the vessel should sound the appropriate signals indicating their intention to the vessel desiring to overtake. But indeed a slower craft with shallower draft should stay to the side of a channel to allow a deeper draft vessel, e.g., a large vessel, or a beamy vessel to pass. It is not rocket science, certainly sailors have travelled roadways with single lane bridges, e.g., the south island of New Zealand has many, including one long one on the main highway that I recall that also shared a railroad track down the middle of the lengthy bridge. I was glad to see that no train was coming along when I traversed that bridge.

Common sense is to be accommodative so as to have neither vessel run aground or to occupy the same hole in the water at the same time, that is to say, to be upholding of the Pauli Exclusion Principle. When being Dead Right, one is both Dead and Right, but being dead one does not get to continue to debate your rights, perhaps your heirs might.