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davidlaing · 09-02-2014, 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I just love it when someone starts spreading words of wisdom using such language like "turtling forces". What a high level science...

Your point...?

davidlaing · 09-02-2014, 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I suppose Mr. Marchaj works in this regard (like "Seaworthiness - the forgotten factor") are well known to You?
How will You rate Catalina 22 seaworthiness from this point of view?

To quote from my book:
These clever rule-beating hull-tweakings were put to a brutal test in the violent, freak storm that engulfed the 1979 running of the biennial British Fastnet race, causing the deaths of fifteen of its participants as well as the loss of a number of unseaworthy vessels. The disaster prompted a thorough evaluation of the many safety issues brought about by the International Offshore Rating Rule. Two benchmark publications soon emerged from this process. The first, published in 1986, is Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor by the Polish hydrodynamic theorist Czesław Marchaj (Ches-wef Mar-khai). This is a large, detailed, technical treatise, based on both theory and experiment at his teaching institution, the University of Southampton in England, on the motion and stability of assorted hull and rig designs in a seaway. Although the discussion often gets unabashedly technical, Marchaj is a gifted writer, and he manages to present his material in a way that renders full comprehension of the sometimes formidable mathematical equations non-essential to understanding the important concepts of the book.

My sense is that Prof. Marchaj would have a good chuckle over this discussion.

cburger · 09-02-2014, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidlaing

To quote from my book:
These clever rule-beating hull-tweakings were put to a brutal test in the violent, freak storm that engulfed the 1979 running of the biennial British Fastnet race, causing the deaths of fifteen of its participants as well as the loss of a number of unseaworthy vessels. The disaster prompted a thorough evaluation of the many safety issues brought about by the International Offshore Rating Rule. Two benchmark publications soon emerged from this process. The first, published in 1986, is Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor by the Polish hydrodynamic theorist Czesław Marchaj (Ches-wef Mar-khai). This is a large, detailed, technical treatise, based on both theory and experiment at his teaching institution, the University of Southampton in England, on the motion and stability of assorted hull and rig designs in a seaway. Although the discussion often gets unabashedly technical, Marchaj is a gifted writer, and he manages to present his material in a way that renders full comprehension of the sometimes formidable mathematical equations non-essential to understanding the important concepts of the book.

My sense is that Prof. Marchaj would have a good chuckle over this discussion.

Nice to see you don't take yourself too seriously.

davidlaing · 09-02-2014, 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by cburger

Nice to see you don't take yourself too seriously.

Not quite sure where that comment came from, but in my seventy-one years at the helms of ships large and small, I've come to appreciate the value of taking things in stride.

forsailbyowner · 09-02-2014, 16:42

My first sailboat was an Aquarius 23. I sailed it annually to the Bahamas for over a decade. Did Bimini many times, The abacos, walkers cay etc..... It was modified and had an open transom and the bottom of the companionway filled so it was like having the bottom board in all the time. I did this after being pooped one time and sitting in water in the cockpit. Took on a lot of water in one wave and was not a stress free moment.

**boatman61** · 09-02-2014, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidlaing

To quote from my book:
These clever rule-beating hull-tweakings were put to a brutal test in the violent, freak storm that engulfed the 1979 running of the biennial British Fastnet race, causing the deaths of fifteen of its participants as well as the loss of a number of unseaworthy vessels. The disaster prompted a thorough evaluation of the many safety issues brought about by the International Offshore Rating Rule. Two benchmark publications soon emerged from this process. The first, published in 1986, is Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor by the Polish hydrodynamic theorist Czesław Marchaj (Ches-wef Mar-khai). This is a large, detailed, technical treatise, based on both theory and experiment at his teaching institution, the University of Southampton in England, on the motion and stability of assorted hull and rig designs in a seaway. Although the discussion often gets unabashedly technical, Marchaj is a gifted writer, and he manages to present his material in a way that renders full comprehension of the sometimes formidable mathematical equations non-essential to understanding the important concepts of the book.

My sense is that Prof. Marchaj would have a good chuckle over this discussion.

Damn.. unseaworthy vessels were allowed to enter the Fastnet..? step back in amazement..!! and all these years I was thinking it was bad decisions by skippers.. who either pushed to hard to long or.. abandoned boats that were found afloat long after the crews had died or been picked up..
I believe 5 boats sank out of 303.. and those had been abandoned.. those that were sensible and hove to suffered minimal damage and those that pushed their boats beyond their limits suffered the consequences.. your saying boats were unseaworthy because some dorks did not realise that F11 is not a breeze to race in.. especially in that area..

davidlaing · 09-02-2014, 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Damn.. unseaworthy vessels were allowed to enter the Fastnet..? step back in amazement..!! and all these years I was thinking it was bad decisions by skippers.. who either pushed to hard to long or.. abandoned boats that were found afloat long after the crews had died or been picked up..
I believe 5 boats sank out of 303.. and those had been abandoned.. those that were sensible and hove to suffered minimal damage and those that pushed their boats beyond their limits suffered the consequences.. your saying boats were unseaworthy because some dorks did not realise that F11 is not a breeze to race in.. especially in that area..

No. I am saying that if there was nothing wrong with the IOR-rule boats that came to grief during the 1979 Fastnet, then why did Marchaj, Rousmaniere, et al. bother to write books about the forgotten factor of seaworthiness and the desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore sailboats, and why did naval architects pay attention to them and stop designing boats to the IOR rule? Over to you.

**boatman61** · 09-02-2014, 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidlaing

No. I am saying that if there was nothing wrong with the IOR-rule boats that came to grief during the 1979 Fastnet, then why did Marchaj, Rousmaniere, et al. bother to write books about the forgotten factor of seaworthiness and the desirable and undesirable characteristics of offshore sailboats, and why did naval architects pay attention to them and stop designing boats to the IOR rule? Over to you.

I'm not.. nor ever have been a racer.. but I do know that they are built for that specific purpose with wafer thin hulls extra wide beams and juggled ballast.. they were and are disposable as far as the sponsors are concerned.. and my take on it is these boats were not designed/built to meet the handicap but to cheat it..
They were specialist boats built for a specific purpose.. whereas something like a Westerly GK 29 and 34 were cruisers racers that competed under the IOR rules but were a totally different animal.. weight was in the keel not the bilges with just an iron fin..

I'll be honest.. I've never read Marchaj.. or any other treatise on seaworthiness.. never been big on theory.. just take what I've got and use it as best I can...
What's the rating you'd give a 1969 Hurley 22.. seaworthy enough for 50kts plus and 10metre sea's in the Biscay..??
I say yes.. your numbers would say no..

goat · 09-02-2014, 18:23

It's a good thing Matt Rutherford didn't try to get to the Bahamas, his Albin Vega has a paltry 10.9 SI.
Pushing The Limits: Solo-Sailing The Americas : NPR

DoubleWhisky · 10-02-2014, 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by goat

It's a good thing Matt Rutherford didn't try to get to the Bahamas, his Albin Vega has a paltry 10.9 SI.
Pushing The Limits: Solo-Sailing The Americas : NPR

Do You mean STIX?

Travis McGee · 10-02-2014, 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by feelsgood

I also had the fun when coming out of the Royal MArines to take a Westerley Sirrus 23 ft round the world 32000 miles in 43 months and never once worried about the size of the yacht. The most important factor in the question is was the yacht well built and the rig the best.

Ten-HUT! Render Hand Salute! Ready-To!

goat · 10-02-2014, 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Do You mean STIX?

I was actually referring to davidlaing's newly discovered seaworthy number;

In the course of writing my soon-to-be-published book Seaworthy Sailboats, I developed a new Seaworthiness Index (SI), which is simply the MCR divided by the CSF. My friend Ted Brewer, who has designed many fine, seaworthy sailboats, has tested my SI on a wide variety of boats and he tells me that he would not be happy going offshore in a boat with a lower SI than 15.0. The SI of the C22-2, at 4.1, is very low.That of the Cat 30 is better at 12.4.