IP 38 Chainplate Question

[Brian Oakes]

Greetings,

I am looking at purchasing a 1988 IP 38. During the survey, the surveyor noticed two 2" blisters (small bulges protruding out) on the upper hull, just below the deck where the chain plates are located. He suggested that this was probably due to the chain plates rusting. Since it is very difficult and costly to get at the chainplates, I am wondering if anyone can advise me as to the problem? Are the blisters on the hull by the chainplates due to them rusting? Is this a major problem? What recommendations/suggestions do you have? I really appreciate your feedback.

With appreciation,

Dave

[lovinlifebda]

Dave, I can't say about the blisters you are seeing but I can make a general comment on IP chainplates. We have a 1995 IP 40 and we had a chainplate break off about an inch below the toe rail 4 years ago. The problem is that before 2000, IP was completely encapsulating the chainplates in glass, if water found it's way into the chainplates it had no way out and was causing the plates to corrode and fail. There was some efforts made to drill holes in very specific locations to allow water out but this was not really a fix and on some boats the damage may have already been done. The plates are for the most part behind cabinetry and cannot be inspected. When we replaced our chainplates there were two more that broke as they were being removed.
I spoke to the manager of a large yard in Florida who had already fixed about a dozen IPs and in his opinion any boat built prior to 2000 is at risk. Jim

[Brian Oakes]

Thank you, Jim. This is very helpful information. Do you have any idea how much it would cost to fix the chainplates (ballpark)?

Dave

[lovinlifebda]

Brian, Four years ago without them looking at the boat I was given a ballpark of $12,000US. As mentioned this yard had already done a dozen or so. I did it myself except for the glass work. I have woodworking experience and had access to a full shop so removed all the cabinetry myself and did all the grunt work, had a pro for 1.5 days do the grinding and glass work. Bought the chain plates and uni-directional glass from IP. Just guessing a bit now but probably cost around $4,000US. My wife and I put in over 120 hours of labour, it is a fairly major undertaking.


Jim

[Stumble]

IP chainplates are absolutely notorious for corrosion. When I was selling titanium bits we made a good bit of money selling replacement IP chainplates, even tried convincing the manufacturer to swap out.

If there is any funky stuff near them, my guess is they are toast. And if you are thinking of an IP call Allied Titanium, they should still have the schematics for the chainplates on file. If I remember right it was a $3-4,000 buy, plus the labor to remove and install.

[briblack]

You could also check out Mack Sail's website, they've done this for IP38's. They have a you tube video discussing it, they could almost certainly give you an estimate. It is a serious concern

[01kiwijohn]

Uh oh! I have a 1980 Cascade 36 with similar chain plate construction. Anyone had any problems or experience with theirs?
I've looked, and see a little surface rust on the little stubs, on the inside. I've been very diligent in keeping them sealed at the deck, but don't know how previous owners maintained them. I also inspect regularly and have seen no further deterioration
Any advice I'd appreciate.

[Stumble]

Here's the problem... One drop of salt water that gets past the deck seal is enough to start what's called intergranuler corrosion. Basically the passivated and active portions of the chainplates are galvanically active, and that one drop of salt water is enough to act as an electrolyte. Once that drop is in there the damage has started and now it's just a race against time...

The fix it to open up the encapsulated plates inspect them, particularly the section between the deck, and the back sides.

Of course once you have taken the entire boat apart just to inspect them it's almost crazy not to replace them. Then you have the question, do you stick with stainless that is going to require the same process again in 10 years or switch to something that will last forever (titanium). For our clients the decision was titanium, do it once, and it doesn't matter any more. It is a bit more upfront.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by lovinlifebda

Brian, Four years ago without them looking at the boat I was given a ballpark of $12,000US. As mentioned this yard had already done a dozen or so. I did it myself except for the glass work. I have woodworking experience and had access to a full shop so removed all the cabinetry myself and did all the grunt work, had a pro for 1.5 days do the grinding and glass work. Bought the chain plates and uni-directional glass from IP. Just guessing a bit now but probably cost around $4,000US. My wife and I put in over 120 hours of labour, it is a fairly major undertaking.


Jim

Hum, have replaced chainplates in three boats. The worse was a Cheoy Lee Luders where i had to use a chisel, hand held sledge hammer, and a crowbar to rip them out. All of them. Replacing them with silly bronze costed a bit over $1200(6 shrouds, 1 back, 1 bow) . The WSnail 43 was less effort(never kept tract of time on these jobs) but again, with the addition of the mizzen, came to $2,600 including mast tangs. Never heard of paying $12,000 just for the plates. Its a laborious but simple process to do it yourself. Any machine shop can make up new plates to your specs, assuming the metal bars are in stock.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Hum, have replaced chainplates in three boats. The worse was a Cheoy Lee Luders where i had to use a chisel, hand held sledge hammer, and a crowbar to rip them out. All of them. Replacing them with silly bronze costed a bit over $1200(6 shrouds, 1 back, 1 bow) . The WSnail 43 was less effort(never kept tract of time on these jobs) but again, with the addition of the mizzen, came to $2,600 including mast tangs. Never heard of paying $12,000 just for the plates. Its a laborious but simple process to do it yourself. Any machine shop can make up new plates to your specs, assuming the metal bars are in stock.

Were they embedded in the fiberglass, like the OP's? I suspect that's where a lot of the cost comes from.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Hum, have replaced chainplates in three boats. The worse was a Cheoy Lee Luders where i had to use a chisel, hand held sledge hammer, and a crowbar to rip them out. All of them. Replacing them with silly bronze costed a bit over $1200(6 shrouds, 1 back, 1 bow) . The WSnail 43 was less effort(never kept tract of time on these jobs) but again, with the addition of the mizzen, came to $2,600 including mast tangs. Never heard of paying $12,000 just for the plates. Its a laborious but simple process to do it yourself. Any machine shop can make up new plates to your specs, assuming the metal bars are in stock.

IP chainplates are monolithic, encapsulated, and a royal pain to get to. I think it was the 42' where the chainplates were 3' tall and 4' wide. They are not a simple bar like on most boats. Basically there is a large grid that's all welded together for every chainplate, and you have to remove the entire thing as a solid piece.

It's a great design, but they used the wrong metal. If they were titanium they would have lasted forever.... While grotesquely strong, they are also very suceptable to corrosion, the problem was so bad that IP had a couple they had to repair under warranty (5 years).

[Dave Oakes]

I wanted to thank Jim and everyone for all the great feedback on the IP chainplates. At this point, I have to make a decision whether to go ahead and purchase this 1988 IP 38 and replace the 4 chain plates, or look for another boat.
What would you recommend? A bit of information, I would have a yard do the work.

Thanks again for your feedback.

Dave

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by Stumble

IP chainplates are monolithic, encapsulated, and a royal pain to get to. I think it was the 42' where the chainplates were 3' tall and 4' wide. They are not a simple bar like on most boats. Basically there is a large grid that's all welded together for every chainplate, and you have to remove the entire thing as a solid piece.

It's a great design, but they used the wrong metal. If they were titanium they would have lasted forever.... While grotesquely strong, they are also very suceptable to corrosion, the problem was so bad that IP had a couple they had to repair under warranty (5 years).

Cheoy Lee embedded their plates right into the fiberglass layup of the hull knees and then covered up the mess with cabinetry work. The bow was worse in that a deck plate was welded to the chain plate, and both welded to whatever else the original worker felt was desirable. In my case that was to the anchor chain channel. But at least the chain plates were simple, flat bar stock and not some squirrel cage as with IP. Westsail was easy. Just attached to the hull from the outside. No big muss nor fuss. Just sweat.

[Frankly]

The typical cost to replace a set of IP chainplates is $10K by yards that have some experience. If you use 316L SS for the replacement then they are probably going to outlast the yacht. A large part of that cost is to remove the woodwork to get to the area.

If you look at that Mack Sails video on a 38 they attached the fiberglass rovings at the top bar not the lower as was the original design. Not sure if the Mack folks have figured something out or just don't know/ understand.

IP changed to 316 L in the late 90 and also quit covering the assy with a glass covering. Their general recommendation before Bob Johnson exited was any of the older yachts venturing offshore should replace their plates.


Garhauer was the supplier of recent times and they have the info to make new plates. Also note that Mack used individual units rather than an assy on the main port and stbd sides, but this is probably NBD.

[Stumble]

If there is reason to be concerned I would get a quote from the yard to replace them. Then deduct that from my offer. Or have the owner fix it and add it back to the offer.