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Old 02-07-2018, 10:16   #31
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

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Originally Posted by NotCook View Post
What I still wonder about is how bad an idea it would be to broadcast on AIS along the Somali coast. IF I were a pirate, I'd be using AIS to track my potential prey.
I only quote a portion of the post. Correct, but might it be a good idea to have an available emergency type output on AIS (along the line of what is available for aircraft) that can transmit that there is an emergency and what type. For example, "pirates", or "fire" or... and even limit the added information to certain types of receivers if appropriate.
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Old 02-07-2018, 14:14   #32
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

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JPA Cate

...More to this point- FCC regulations involved- The Ocean Signal MOB1 AIS unit has a DSC function to simultaneously "all call" vhf radio's in the surrounding range-
Excellent duel purpose communication- except it is not legal nor programmable in North America. Yet West Marine , Landfall Navigation, MIlltech Marine, and others fail to identify that in advertising.

...
Safe cruising

Actually the Ocean Signal MOB1 IS legal in the US. See http://oceansignal.com/wordpress/wp-...s/MOB1-FCC.pdf. Combination AIS/DSC MOB devices capable of transmitting an all-ships DSC alertas well as an AIS SART signal having the MOB MMSI identity prefix 972 are specified in RTCM Standard 11901.1 and have been accepted by the FCC by waiver (updates to their Part 80 maritime regulations can take years).
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Old 02-07-2018, 16:20   #33
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

On the southern coasts of Western Australia a major hazard for small vessels travelling at night is crayfish pot lines. Since there are strong currents the fisherman tend to use long poly floating lines with small polystyrene floats on the end of the lines.

My vessel fouled one of these and sailing in a light breeze it brought it to a halt. Fortunately I had a grapnel we were able to hook the line with and winch it up to the surface where we were able to cut it.

On a recent voyage up this coast last year I again encountered these hazards and they are very difficult to see even in daylight as it was winter and a fairly decent swell was running and the floats only visible when both float and vessel were on the crests of the swells.

The sensible approach would be to provide a greater range of hazard type indicators and perhaps even hazard direction and range information in the transmitted signal so that a single transmitter could define the limits of the hazard to be indicated on the AIS receiver plots, after all it is an Automatic Identification System for navigational hazards.
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Old 02-07-2018, 16:43   #34
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

Too many posts on this subject to make sure the following isn't a duplicate of someone else's post, but ...

It seems a new AIS msg type for dangerous operations would cover this situation. A vessel working nets or other operations for which nearby vessels need to be aware, would broadcast a msg with the coordinates (rectangle or circle) within which the operation is taking place. Chart plotting software could display this area on the charts as one to avoid.
This could also apply to Naval exercises. They broadcast the area of the exercise on the VHF, but it would be nice if that area showed up on the electronic chart displays.
IMO that would be a whole lot more useful than some of the allowed AIS msgs that don't seem to have much relationship to safety at sea.

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Old 02-07-2018, 17:03   #35
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

I have not read all the posts. MArine Traffic when zeroed into Cape Hatteras show there Fishing bits is a different color, so maybe chart plotter software could be upgraded to show a different icon.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais...ry:34.7/zoom:8
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Old 02-07-2018, 21:21   #36
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

The author of that blog obviously does not like the idea of AIS being used for anything other than identifying a "managed boat".


"The AIS system was devised and built as a safety system for vessels under management. It was not built as an identification system for unmanned, unpowered fish net and long line floats that do not ask questions and cannot correct their course. If the technology is used for net tracking, the targets should display with a clearly different icon or graphic on screen. But they do not. They look just like ships on screen."


However, industry leaders such as Vesper and Iridium, manufacture exactly that. AIS transponders for fishing nets, oil spills or any other seaborne hazards. I do however appreciate his anxiety if they are not identifying as such.

As for being outright illegal, well that is not exactly true either. The following is quoted from the USCG website.

"There are no outright prohibitions to use AIS (i.e. AIS AtoN) as a marker (see Types of AIS and IALA Recommendation 1016 – Mobile Marine Aids to Navigation). However, it is not permissible to do so with equipment intended for use on vessels, (i.e. AIS Class A or B devices), for lifesaving (i.e. AIS SART, MOB AIS, EPIRB AIS), or with devices that are not FCC certified and licensed. See 47 CFR §§ 2.803
,
2.805, 2.301, and 80.13 regarding licensing, station identity, and the prohibition to sell, market, or use radio devices that are not FCC authorized (search, Equipment Class: AIS)."
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:49   #37
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

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Originally Posted by Pete O Static View Post
The author of that blog obviously does not like the idea of AIS being used for anything other than identifying a "managed boat".


"The AIS system was devised and built as a safety system for vessels under management. It was not built as an identification system for unmanned, unpowered fish net and long line floats that do not ask questions and cannot correct their course. If the technology is used for net tracking, the targets should display with a clearly different icon or graphic on screen. But they do not. They look just like ships on screen."


However, industry leaders such as Vesper and Iridium, manufacture exactly that. AIS transponders for fishing nets, oil spills or any other seaborne hazards. I do however appreciate his anxiety if they are not identifying as such.

As for being outright illegal, well that is not exactly true either. The following is quoted from the USCG website.

"There are no outright prohibitions to use AIS (i.e. AIS AtoN) as a marker (see Types of AIS and IALA Recommendation 1016 – Mobile Marine Aids to Navigation). However, it is not permissible to do so with equipment intended for use on vessels, (i.e. AIS Class A or B devices), for lifesaving (i.e. AIS SART, MOB AIS, EPIRB AIS), or with devices that are not FCC certified and licensed. See 47 CFR §§ 2.803
,
2.805, 2.301, and 80.13 regarding licensing, station identity, and the prohibition to sell, market, or use radio devices that are not FCC authorized (search, Equipment Class: AIS)."

I think most people in this thread have expressed firm disagreement with the cited blog author. In my opinion, anyway, he is flatly wrong, and really illogical in his complaint -- "vessels under management"? "Can't answer questions or change course"? What does that have to do with anything? Why would we NOT want to see an object, just because we can't talk with it on the radio?

Meanwhile we have great proliferation of AIS to show the location of navigational marks -- which likewise can't "answer questions or change course", and which is welcomed by everyone I know.

I think the blog author just had a slow news days, and couldn't figure out what to write about, so came up with this baseless and illogical rant.

Of course it would be great if we could have different icons, like we already do for navigation marks (the diamond with the whatsit inside). I'm sure we will soon. Meanwhile, I am very happy to start seeing some fishing gear which I might not otherwise be able to see, with whatever icon, and I think nearly everyone on the water feels the same.
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Old 03-07-2018, 11:03   #38
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I think most people in this thread have expressed firm disagreement with the cited blog author. In my opinion, anyway, he is flatly wrong, and really illogical in his complaint -- "vessels under management"? "Can't answer questions or change course"? What does that have to do with anything? Why would we NOT want to see an object, just because we can't talk with it on the radio?

Meanwhile we have great proliferation of AIS to show the location of navigational marks -- which likewise can't "answer questions or change course", and which is welcomed by everyone I know.

I think the blog author just had a slow news days, and couldn't figure out what to write about, so came up with this baseless and illogical rant.

Of course it would be great if we could have different icons, like we already do for navigation marks (the diamond with the whatsit inside). I'm sure we will soon. Meanwhile, I am very happy to start seeing some fishing gear which I might not otherwise be able to see, with whatever icon, and I think nearly everyone on the water feels the same.
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Old 03-07-2018, 20:35   #39
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

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Originally Posted by NotCook View Post
IF I were a pirate, I'd be using AIS to track my potential prey.

Do not worry, they've been doing just that for years. That's the reason why most modern AIS can be switched to receive-only mode.
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Old 04-07-2018, 06:07   #40
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Re: Illegal AIS Fish Beacons: Another Hazard to Navigation

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
Now...back to the legalities... that would all be a lot better if the AIS targets showed properly identified as "fishing gear" and not some random kind of boat.

That is already in place. The bigger issue is how recreational MFDs display the received AIS sentence. Have you (big you, not you specifically) updated the firmware in your device? Have you pressed the manufacturer to keep up?


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OP saw aircraft carrier AIS? That's good - around San Diego the carriers and several other large fast Navy ships do manouvres just outside the harbor sometimes at high speed, and never did they activate AIS transmitters at least when we were there.

That is changed. US Navy policy, following a number of collisions in the Seventh Fleet, is not to transmit by default. There are some implementation issues to work (MMSI only, ship name, "US warship", etc.). It's a huge improvement in places with a significant US Navy presence. I'm grateful that the Navy finally got the message.


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If anything I would rather fine people (mostly from a certain country) if they do not turn off their AIS broadcast while tied to a dock.

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