I Wish I Never Bought This Boat

[StuM]

> I'm not paying more than 500

Guess you could nearly recover that in scrap value

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by thruska

ISSUU - Points East Magazine, December 2013 by Points East gentlemen, it's a long story...

Ah yes. You clearly understand. There is something about bringing something back from the brink that appeals to me as well. I've done it with cars and other things. I'm far more comfortable restoring the unrestorable than many people I've found. And yes, there is a little animist in all of us I think and particularly in sailors.

Thank you sir, I think you've hit it on the head.

AussieGeoff

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by StuM

> I'm not paying more than 500

Guess you could nearly recover that in scrap value

Heh, yes, I had that in mind. That was my point to the seller.

I quote from my email to him "...I think we can agree she’s a fair sort of a mess and probably more like scrap metal in her present situation than a viable boat."

Scrap steel around $200-300 a tonne. Not sure what she'd weigh, but probably close to two tonne, probably a cast iron keel from what I can see of it.

Probably go close to 500 in scrap for the hull at the right scrapper. Perhaps about the same for the mast and whatever fittings are worth removing. At 25' she'll fit on a car trailer to go to the scrapper in one piece, or a couple of hours with a plasma cutter could easily make that two or more pieces.

If you've never used a plasma cutter on steel plate, it's literally like a hot knife through butter and the one at the trailer factory will cut 20mm readily. 3-5mm plate is about 3" a second with a bit of practice.

It also makes patching steel or replacing a segment of damaged frame or plate a lot easier. And it's portable, no gases, just compressed air and electricity.

Maybe he's got the same idea. I'm going to recontact him and see what he says this time. But the fact I got no response to my tentative offer suggests he thinks it's worth way more than it is in that state and considers anyone that doesn't jump at his price a 'time waster'.


AussieGeoff

[thruska]

We sailed her down the Connecticut River, fished and crabbed in old Saybrook, long island sound, hellgate, now in North carolina.

[druid]

I must enjoy working on "project boats" - I've had SO many!

The one thing to learn is that you'll never get your money back. I paid $12K for a 1974 Crown 28, put over $10K in it (including all new freshwater system, head and holding tank, engine, fuel tank, genoa, dodger...) and sold it for $4K

My "new" boat is an Ontario 32 - in good shape for its age, but needs a lot of things: battery charger, bilge pump, pressure water, fridge, GPS, autohelm, etc. But I got it for $16K and it sails really well and is very comfortable.

As someone else said - you HAVE to be able to sail them. When the engine quit on the Crown 28, I slapped an outboard on the stern (the one I was using on the dinghy) and sailed to Desolation Sound and back.

But you have to love working on boats!

druid
"Wind Drift" - Ontario 32

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by mrohr

Boats are floating philosophies.

Good one - like it. There's alot of truth in that.

In that case, our 'floating philosophy' happens to be small but it has brought us little grief and much, much joy.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by AussieGeoff

Oh yes, I did learn.

1) I can weld and have access to a factory with MIG TIG and Plasma cutters, metal benders etc etc.
2) It's more like 2500km
3) I'm not paying more than 500 (he wants 1500 but he's dreaming)
4) Backload on a semi from the golden west to here is about 500 for something that size - theres a company that specialises in it.

One bitten forever biteproof. I get it for what it's actually worth and not what he wants for it or I'll wish him luck and walk away.

I'm silly, but not that silly.

AussieGeoff

If you don't buy the boat and instead send me $500 you will end up $1,000's of dollars better off. For free you also get to save a lot of time, hardwork and heartbreak.

That boat is pretty much the definition of a worthless POS.

[forsailbyowner]

I think a huge part of making a project work is knowing people in the marine world. The Morgan i purchased for $5k from an awful scripted ebay auction. She was a hurricane "totalled' boat. There was more damage moneywise done to the boat by the salvage crew than the hurricane. They cut all the rigging instead of popping the pins out. I got the mast welded back into one piece for $700. Replaced the rigging with some a friend had sitting in his garage from a project he gave up on cost 0. Was close enough that i just had to cut and drill the chainplates to make it work. Im still not done and I guess will probably never be totally done but have logged in excess of 20,000 miles sailing her. Most of the gear was picked up in flea markets or bartering for canvas work. Wouldnt touch a volvo. Parts are just too out of line expensive. I agree with the poster who said pop an outboard on the back and go sailing. I pushed mine around with a 9.9 on a bracket till I got the diesel up and running. Once its dry. sticks up and rudder works theres nothing stopping you from enjoying your boat

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

If you don't buy the boat and instead send me $500 you will end up $1,000's of dollars better off. For free you also get to save a lot of time, hardwork and heartbreak.

I'm really not that silly either. And I still don't have a boat

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

That boat is pretty much the definition of a worthless POS.

Alright, can you be specific about what makes it something to avoid (in your opinion)?

I'm not being facetious, it's clear you have considerable experience and I value that. But my budget to buy is under $3k, not much around in that price range - remember this is not the USA nor is it the East coast of Oz, where boats abound.

What I've seen so far is:
Ports. Most seem to have glass broken, probably vandalism, it's in a remote part of the outskirts of Perth so one can assume the inside is equally trashed.

The fore hatch cover is off, I think it's sitting in the cockpit. I don't see the main companionway hatch at all.

No sails visible (one question I've asked the owner.

Can't see the tiller, the skeg mounted rudder is still there though.

Two probably minor patches of rust at the base of the deckhouse on the starboard side, rest looks ok, even around the ports which is often a starting point.

Several rust runs and a few patches of deep rust, mostly on the toe rail where it joins the hull/deck.

Alloy Mast seems intact. Mast base seems intact. No obvious corrosion or deterioration. Standing rigging looks to be s/steel and seems to be all there.

Alloy boom appears intact and uncorroded.

What looks to be an outboard motor mount on the stern seems to have torn away.

No obvious antennas.

Assumptions:
1) Interior probably trashed. By vandals if not by rainwater etc entry through open hatches.
2) May be standing water in the bilges. (Though in Perth's climate, probably unlikely - hot and dry like here. But any interior timber is likely to have water damage.
3) Possible some hull plating may need to be cut out and new steel welded in.
(That's easy).
4) Check for thinned out plates/frames. Cut out, weld and fill/replace as needed. (Also fairly easy)
5) Some of the running rigging is visible, what's there looks ok, but assume it will need replacing.
6) No motor. (Not an inboard).
7) Assume no elecronics or it's not working. I can fix it if doesn't work - but VHF marine radios are cheap enough - I have some Moto Commercial ones that can be programmed for Marine, mobile and h/held so no probs. I have a sounder (basic but brand new) at home. GPS - have laptop and charts et al.
Will need a compass fitted (looks like it might have had one but it's gone or broken I think). Probably no bilge pumps batteries et al or they don't work.
8) Remove all the rails and pull/pushpits and reattach, fix any corrosion.
9) Fit an outboard mount et al.
10) Looks like a portapotti in the cockpit. Ditch it and built in a head and macerator somewhere.
11) Replace the outboard mounting. Get a motor. (Easy).
11) Prepare and Paint. Strip it out and soda blast the whole thing back to bare metal inside and out . I can get a soda blaster easy enough. Cut out the rust, anticorrosion treatment, prime and repaint. I have a spray outfit and I know how to use it. The trailer factory work with two part enamels and such routinely as well and they have a big spray booth...

What did I miss? Most of that is work rather than a LOT of money. I can get good steel cheap. MIG and TIG and Plasma cutters I can borrow, plate benders etc I have access to. I have a bit of money and a lot of time. What are the show stoppers to you?

Assuming I can buy it and get it to where I can work on it for a total of around $1000, I think that's probably the scrap/parts value.

Thanks for your help. Appreciated.

Aussie Geoff

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by StuM

> I'm not paying more than 500

Guess you could nearly recover that in scrap value

Yes, I'm guessing it weighs around 2 tonne, that's 400-600 for scrap metal, plus fittings that are saleable, mast and boom, anchor, winches etc. Probably close to the same. Put it this way, if he goes for the offer of 500 and it costs me around that to get it here, I'm pretty much covered if it turns out to be too far gone.

AussieGeoff

[carstenb]

I don't know a damn thing about OZ, but in virtually every marina I've ever seen, there is a "back row" of boats that have been sitting on the hard for years. These can usually be gotten for almost zero money - in some cases you can get them for free. I'd start looking there - where I could rummage around in the boat and get a better idea of how bad things are.

My club chased some of the "back row" owners and ended up getting three boats for free. They didn't need much work and now the club has three club boats the members can use.

Originally Posted by AussieGeoff

I'm really not that silly either. And I still don't have a boat



Alright, can you be specific about what makes it something to avoid (in your opinion)?

I'm not being facetious, it's clear you have considerable experience and I value that. But my budget to buy is under $3k, not much around in that price range - remember this is not the USA nor is it the East coast of Oz, where boats abound.

What I've seen so far is:
Ports. Most seem to have glass broken, probably vandalism, it's in a remote part of the outskirts of Perth so one can assume the inside is equally trashed.

The fore hatch cover is off, I think it's sitting in the cockpit. I don't see the main companionway hatch at all.

No sails visible (one question I've asked the owner.

Can't see the tiller, the skeg mounted rudder is still there though.

Two probably minor patches of rust at the base of the deckhouse on the starboard side, rest looks ok, even around the ports which is often a starting point.

Several rust runs and a few patches of deep rust, mostly on the toe rail where it joins the hull/deck.

Alloy Mast seems intact. Mast base seems intact. No obvious corrosion or deterioration. Standing rigging looks to be s/steel and seems to be all there.

Alloy boom appears intact and uncorroded.

What looks to be an outboard motor mount on the stern seems to have torn away.

No obvious antennas.

Assumptions:
1) Interior probably trashed. By vandals if not by rainwater etc entry through open hatches.
2) May be standing water in the bilges. (Though in Perth's climate, probably unlikely - hot and dry like here. But any interior timber is likely to have water damage.
3) Possible some hull plating may need to be cut out and new steel welded in.
(That's easy).
4) Check for thinned out plates/frames. Cut out, weld and fill/replace as needed. (Also fairly easy)
5) Some of the running rigging is visible, what's there looks ok, but assume it will need replacing.
6) No motor. (Not an inboard).
7) Assume no elecronics or it's not working. I can fix it if doesn't work - but VHF marine radios are cheap enough - I have some Moto Commercial ones that can be programmed for Marine, mobile and h/held so no probs. I have a sounder (basic but brand new) at home. GPS - have laptop and charts et al.
Will need a compass fitted (looks like it might have had one but it's gone or broken I think). Probably no bilge pumps batteries et al or they don't work.
8) Remove all the rails and pull/pushpits and reattach, fix any corrosion.
9) Fit an outboard mount et al.
10) Looks like a portapotti in the cockpit. Ditch it and built in a head and macerator somewhere.
11) Replace the outboard mounting. Get a motor. (Easy).
11) Prepare and Paint. Strip it out and soda blast the whole thing back to bare metal inside and out . I can get a soda blaster easy enough. Cut out the rust, anticorrosion treatment, prime and repaint. I have a spray outfit and I know how to use it. The trailer factory work with two part enamels and such routinely as well and they have a big spray booth...

What did I miss? Most of that is work rather than a LOT of money. I can get good steel cheap. MIG and TIG and Plasma cutters I can borrow, plate benders etc I have access to. I have a bit of money and a lot of time. What are the show stoppers to you?

Assuming I can buy it and get it to where I can work on it for a total of around $1000, I think that's probably the scrap/parts value.

Thanks for your help. Appreciated.

Aussie Geoff

[AussieGeoff]

Originally Posted by carstenb

I don't know a damn thing about OZ, but in virtually every marina I've ever seen, there is a "back row" of boats that have been sitting on the hard for years. These can usually be gotten for almost zero money - in some cases you can get them for free. I'd start looking there - where I could rummage around in the boat and get a better idea of how bad things are.

Ok, you obviously haven't seen the situation here. I'm not sure about the east coast but there are no marinas like you describe here. Marinas here don't have 'back lots' in fact a lot don't have front lots, just a jetty, maybe an office and a shop or something, fuel outlet. Thats it. What passes for a marina here at one end of the commercial wharf, a shaky old jetty behind a fish shop. A ramp and some Council owned haul out stuff (big trailer you can rent for a small fee for a haulout from the Council (City Council - they own the Marina) or a larger fee if you aren't a tenant. There are no swing moorings here, nowhere to put them, so mostly small putt putt fishing boats and maybe six or so smallish yachts. Biggest is a 30ft Ferro I'm waiting for the present owner to lose interest in (seems to be using it as a floating waterfront shack - small runabout tied to it they seem to go fishing in - boat hasn't moved for years, go figure) They've tied it parallel to the jetty now, prior to that it was stern in and they didn't moor it right and in some heavy weather last year it bashed a hole in the bows on one of the pylons it was moored between. Been repaired now (not sure how well, but ferro's pretty easy to fix). Never seen it off the mooring, looks ok, seems like a waste of a good boat to me. Last time it changed hands it was in exchange for a cheap car and caravan (travel trailer to you Americans). Maybe it will change hands again who knows.



From what I've seen of the Marina's in and around Adelaide and Port Lincoln (Lincoln Cove is very nice) they don't have back lots. There are certainly no 'back row' of anything, if it's not being used, it's outta there pronto. Maybe there are places like that in Sydney or on the east coast somewhere but I kinda doubt it. I'm in the almost middle of Oz right at the bottom almost. A long way from the east coast - too far to just casually wander over there and go marina hunting looking for back lots full of old boats that probably don't exist here as such, if they do, I've never seen one. Other members from that area could probably confirm or deny that. I've seen pictures of marinas like that in the US so I do know what you mean, but if there are any like that here I've never seen one.

Originally Posted by carstenb

My club chased some of the "back row" owners and ended up getting three boats for free. They didn't need much work and now the club has three club boats the members can use.

Only boats I've ever seen go for free were some of the 'mooring minders' on swing moorings in and around Sydney. Rule there apparently is that if you want a mooring (and there's a waiting list most places it seems) you have to have a boat on it or you lose it. So boats that are pretty much shells get a career as mooring minders for people who are 'between boats'. Some end up getting sold and some end up sinking and some end up being confiscated by Maritime because they don't meet standards (they have to be tidy and painted and able to move on their own to qualify even for that).

In the entire state of SA at the moment there are 71 sailboats for sale, most of them over $10k. So you have to take whatever you can get at my end of the market. Does it make more sense now.

I see where you're coming from, unfortunately the situation here is simply nothing like that at all. If people have an old boat, they tend to have it in their yard at home, not somewhere it's costing them money.

Hope that clears that up for ya.

AussieGeoff

[MarkJ]

Hey geoff,

Has anyone in this thread, or the other thread said they think you should buy this boat?

No. Not one person.

Think about it.

Why would everyone, bar none, think the boat is not one to be bought? Do you think they are leaving you with an oportunity? Or do you think they are saying that you should not buy the boat?

Really think and add up the advice. Not one person thinks you should do it. None!

Why?

[Mark1977]

Aussiegeoff, you should wait. I understand you want a boat now. After your last one you should know better. I went through the same thing and wouldn't think of getting another headache. Education cost money, consider your last boat a lesson, don't do it again.
Just my opinion....wish you the best either way..

[AussieGeoff]

Ok MarkJ and Mark1977 thank you for being direct.

I'm not blind to the consensus from the very experienced people here which basically says, 'forget it'.

I suppose that means I should just forget the whole idea, since it seems I will never have the capital in one place at one time to buy something that meets the criteria.

In a nutshell your advice is that I wait until something comes up that is:

Fibreglass
Preferably on a trailer, say a 16-24 footer.
In good order and ready to sail
Local

What we would like is something:
Big enough to do week in without too much discomfort. (Bigger the better clearly, but anything 23' or bigger would be ok.)
In good order or able to be put into good order fairly easily.
On a trailer would be desirable but not essential.
Local.

Works for me.

The problem is that's looking more like ten grand than three.
Yes, there's boats on the East Coast that might fit that description and price, but it would cost more to get them here than it would cost for the boat, which pretty much screws the budget.

With the exception of a 30' Black Soo I missed by a couple of hours there's literally nothing that fits that anywhere near my budget anywhere near where I live.

Maybe the guy with the 30' Ferro beach shack at the marina here might decide to get rid of it one day.

On that basis it seems the best thing to do is forget the whole thing because I'll simply never have a budget that will allow me to pay the sort of money I'd need to pay out in one lump sum to get something that the group thinks is worth the trouble.

Well not before I'm too old to be thinking about cruising anyway, even in the limited local waters/coastal style we had in mind. Ok. So be it.

Basically the consensus I'm reading from the group is that don't bother with anything that needs work, don't buy fixer uppers. If you can't afford something good, you're better off swallowing the anchor than wasting your time and money on a possibility.

Ok. I suppose that's the sensible thing to do.

Or is there some other way? I'm listening.

AussieGeoff