How many bilge pumps?

[gwoiler]

Originally Posted by davil

I cannot even imagine the decisions you will need to make in order to prioritize all the projects you need to task.

The first 4 years of this boat's life was charter. But, because it is a center cockpit, it was not used as much because it was not a charter version. the second owner - before me, bought her in 2003. Wiring was not his strong point as I can see by how the solar panels are wired up. Yes... I will slowly trace everything out.

[gwoiler]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

A tell tail light you can see in the cockpit is a handy thing to have so you can keep an eye on bilge pump activity !

Very good idea! I have never heard the bilge alarm.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Absolutely have two electric bilge pumps on separate switches. The second (higher) one should be as big as will fit (3000 to 4000 gph). Also install high water alarm.

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by gwoiler

...........Should I have a second electric higher volume pump? What is your second pump?.......

Great idea. My Hunter 46 has a 1500 gph primary electric bilge pump and a secondary 4000 gph electric bilge pump both with a float switch besides manual pump.

[svfinlandia]

Originally Posted by Emmalina

A tell tail light you can see in the cockpit is a handy thing to have so you can keep an eye on bilge pump activity !

I have a bilge pump counter that I think is also very useful.

Al, S/V Finlandia

[TrentePieds]

Oiler said: "My Beneteau 40cc has one electric diaphragm bilge pump and a manual whale. The electric pump works but does not really move a lot of water. I have seen 4000 gph pumps for sale. Should I have a second electric higher volume pump? What is your second pump?"

Hm... Let's not go charging willy-nilly into it :-)!

Bilge pump installations are among the simplest "systems" in a boat. So, Oiler, just go back to basics and tidy up what others have buggered up :-)!

The float switches in your bilge are really only "bypass switches". The pump, whether it's the diaphragm type or the centrifugal type, should be wired from a simple "On/Off" switch in your panel by you navigating station. So now, if you have water in the bilge, you throw the switch to “On”, and the pump does it's thing. When the water is gone, you throw the switch to “Off” and the pump stops.

But you won't always be there to play with the switch. So therefore you take a “tap” from the battery side of that switch to a “float switch” in the bilge. This switch is what's technically called a “normally 'Off' switch”. “Off “ (non-conducting) is its “state” when there is no water in the bilge. If there is water in the bilge the switch floats and goes to the “On” (conducting) state, and the pump runs. You can have several such float switches at different levels in the bilge, but what is the advantage of that?

What IS often required is that in the “sump” (holding compartment or separate bilge) under your toilet room, there is a separate pump to take the “grey water” from that sump either overboard or into the main bilge, whence the main bilge pump takes the (now scummy, nasty) bilge water overboard. That pump can be wired just like the main bilge pump.

Now, I don't shower in my boat because it makes a mess that takes ages to clean up. It also introduces the moisture that is required for mould to grow. But if I HAD a shower head in my toilet room, instead of wiring the sump pump like the main bilge pump, I'd have a simple On/Off switch right there in the toilet room to govern it.

So don't get tied in knots over a bilge pump. Just go back to basics. It's dead simple. And if you are gonna be a seafaring man, you'll need to learn to do 12V wiring, so this is a perfect place to start :-)!

If you would like me to, then sing out and I will draw you a simple diagram of how to do it.

There are some other issues you might like to think about: IMO a 4K gph bilge pump is TOTAL overkill in your boat, but the wiring will be the same regardless of pump capacity, so why don't we start with the wiring?

Cultivez la simplicité :-)!

TrentePieds

[MicHughV]

Speaking from experience, the best advice I can give anyone regarding bilge pumps is to install an alarm into the circuit.
When my bilge pump goes off, I will want to know the reason why ASAP !!!!

If you are sailing at night (or even during the day), you might not be aware your bilge pump has been activated
A piercing wail will get your prompt attention. My alarm is wired with an inline switch, so it can be turned off after it goes off to save your eardrums. It has a piercing wail that can wake the dead.

[Tudorsailor]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Speaking from experience, the best advice I can give anyone regarding bilge pumps is to install an alarm into the circuit.
When my bilge pump goes off, I will want to know the reason why ASAP !!!!

If you are sailing at night (or even during the day), you might not be aware your bilge pump has been activated
A piercing wail will get your prompt attention. My alarm is wired with an inline switch, so it can be turned off after it goes off to save your eardrums. It has a piercing wail that can wake the dead.

Our original whale bilge pump can be turned off at the panel. Not ideal
I had a high capacity submerged pump fitted as a back up. It is hard wired so can never be turned off.

Also I make it part of the annual chores to change the impeller in the Whale pump. Vanes can easily break off as I discovered

TS

[gwoiler]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Hm... Let's not go charging willy-nilly into it :-)!

Cultivez la simplicité :-)!

TrentePieds

Thanks for all that. I live off grid on 20 acres with solar and diesel power. 12 volt wiring is nothing new to me. Other people's messes that I have inherited are just that - a mess. I recently talked to the previous owner from Montreal. He, at 74, could not shed much light on the 2 float switches and the electric panel configuration. So, I will get around to sorting it all out.


If you saw the picture I posted in one reply, you can see a non-switched sump pump push style breaker with light on, and another switched breaker bilge pump with light on. Maybe, the circuit is active but nothing is connected to the sump pump? Shower sumps work normally when energized so the few comments along the way that this push style breaker Sump Pump is the shower sumps makes no sense.


The diaphragm bilge pump is a tad slow and yes, I will install a second pump. I have appreciated all the comments here. I think an indicator light for when bilge pumps are on - in the cockpit is a good idea.



Each head/shower has its own push button sump pump. I will take showers aboard.



And yes, it is... Woiler - my last name
Thank you.

[moseriw]

sailcrazy Oh pardon, I forgot to mention. The engine bilge pump had an included electronic! float switch which refused to work as it got oil. The pump wasd done by then and I did not wanted to have this killer on board.

Btw. yes of course it was mentioned in the small printed section with a half sentence.

[Marathon1150]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Speaking from experience, the best advice I can give anyone regarding bilge pumps is to install an alarm into the circuit.
When my bilge pump goes off, I will want to know the reason why ASAP !!!!

If you are sailing at night (or even during the day), you might not be aware your bilge pump has been activated
A piercing wail will get your prompt attention. My alarm is wired with an inline switch, so it can be turned off after it goes off to save your eardrums. It has a piercing wail that can wake the dead.

I agree re the audible alarm. As noted earlier, we have a Volkswagen horn mounted to the bilge high water sensor. A light in the cockpit could be useful but might not be noticed during the day depending on where it is located. It is not possible to ignore the horn.

I think that I might also agree that the electronic sensors are better than float switches. We have both and the electronic version (two small metal pins which when immersed in seawater complete a circuit) seems to be more responsive to water in the bilge.

I agree that figuring out the wiring on used boats is both challenging and essential. There are always surprises (usually bad) and it is best to discover them prior to the dark rainy night when land or a large vessel are threatening.

Your panel is quite different from either of ours. Our 1985 boat has the original Beneteau panel which uses glass fuses. It was supplemented with a Blue Seas panel when additional circuits were necessary for things like 12V outlets, stereo, autopilot, etc. The 1990 boat was "upgraded" by a previous owner with a large Blueseas panel that uses breakers. In both cases, the bilge pumps are wired so that the bilge pumps can be turned on or off at the panels, but the float/water sensor switches will actuate without the switch being on. I think that this is what Trente Pieds is referring to in his description of wiring the switches.

Good luck all around!

[MicHughV]

Here is the thing....in order for a bilge pump to work, it needs a bilge.

Enter the Beneteau. Like other French type planing hulls, the bilge is a shoebox sized indentation in the keel. There is no room for a bilge pump in there.
What is in there, are two hoses, one feeds the electric bilge pump, the other the manual pump. The float switch for the electric pump is fastened to a block of wood, which in turn is glue to the hull.

Keep in mind, the cabin sole is only about 9" or so above the hull.

With the boat heeled over, water inside the boat simply flows to the low side of the boat, ie, when going to windward. In this way, you can have several 100 gallons of water sloshing around inside your boat, before the float switch will activate, but even so, the "shoebox" bilge is on the high side, making pickup a problem. How do I know this. Trust me on this one, this is the voice of experience talking here. The bilge pump is not a bilge pump per se, it is a water pump, located under the settee.

It's a concern.

When I'm out sailing, I close all the thru' hulls, except for the engine intake and the one head located by the companion way. This way, should there be a problem, I know immediately where to look for a potential issue.

Modern day boats have a plethora of holes in the hull.....generators, a/c's, usually two heads, two sinks, etc, etc. It behoves any sailor to assess their thru' hull requirements.

Then there is the matter of the thru' hulls itself. My second boat had all bronze thru' hulls throughout the boat. At a scheduled haulout, for a bottom job, I thought I would inspect the thru' hulls. Come to find out, the cone inside the housing as well as the housing were badly pitted. Even when closed, they weren't closed at all. I tried to hone these items with rubbing paste, but the pitting was too deep to affect much improvement.

Just saying......

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

With the boat heeled over, water inside the boat simply flows to the low side of the boat, ie, when going to windward. In this way, you can have several 100 gallons of water sloshing around inside your boat, before the float switch will activate, but even so, the "shoebox" bilge is on the high side, making pickup a problem. How do I know this. Trust me on this one, this is the voice of experience talking here. The bilge pump is not a bilge pump per se, it is a water pump, located under the settee.

This makes me think that a proper pump setup for these boats should involve pumps in the center, but also off to the sides to handle any water that gets in while heeled.

[gwoiler]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Enter the Beneteau. Like other French type planing hulls, the bilge is a shoebox sized indentation in the keel. There is no room for a bilge pump in there.
What is in there, are two hoses, one feeds the electric bilge pump, the other the manual pump. The float switch for the electric pump is fastened to a block of wood, which in turn is glue to the hull.

Here is what my bilge-sump looks like. I suspect there is a float switch down in there that does not work. The pump in one picture on the upper left is for the water maker. Right now, the bilge only comes on when I lift the white lever float switch.











Yes, it is all dirty in here. Clean up coming soon. Not sure if you can see it, but there are wire splices below the water. I don't like that. No need for this.

[MicHughV]

I don't think there is a logical solution to the bilge/bilge pump problem on the Bennie 423.

That's why I close off all the thru' hulls not in use, when I go sailing. It's a bit of a PITA to do this, but I would likely retain this habit on any next boat I have.

When I first got the boat, the float switch was laying on it's side. I presume the previous owner had stored some or other gear down there and knocked it loose.

The electric bilge pump, actually has an inline strainer, mounted close to the pump. It is one of those see-thru plastic jobs, about the size of a large egg. As mentioned before, the bilge pump looks to be a diaphragm type water pump. Overall, the entire system is pathetic. That little strainer will clog in an instant. The suction line diameter is probably 1/2". The manual hose looks to be 1 1/2"

Hence the alarm system I installed.

Overall, I love the boat, it's a sweet sailor, but the bilge could use a re-think.