here's a rant for you all to discuss... brokers. Yuck.

[rourkeh]

"Several years ago while searching for our next boat we found a prospect in San Francisco that looked good enough for a trip out there from NYC. We spoke to the broker who recommended hotels, said he would pick us up at the airport, etc. We bought the tickets at premium prices/non refundable due to short notice and got ready to go.

On the night before our early morning flight I checked emails and found the broker had sent a message at about 10pm Eastern time that the boat was sold, full stop. No explanations and most importantly, no phone call. If I hadn't checked emails we would have boarded that flight the next a.m. for a totally waste of time as well as money. We were out big bucks (for us) anyway. Not to mention the disappointment. "

Can't blame the broker for this. You should have made an offer sight unseen based on satisfactory inspection, survey and sea trial, then the boat would have been under offer by you, would not have sold before you could get there.
If it was worth flying across the country to see you should have made sure it was not going to sell before you could see it. Maybe you were new to the boat buying process back then?

[redhead]

You must be joking...

I don't make offers on one off boats I have never seen before. If you do, would you like to buy my boat right now?

I do blame the broker. We were in the market - had he acted differently we might have flown out anyway to look at other boats. HIS actions blew any potential sale. He had no control over the sale, he did have control over his actions/ethics.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by redhead

I don't make offers on one off boats I have never seen before.

Then you'll miss out on the greatest bargains, gotta move fast.

As long as it's a "pending survey and sea trial" contract, and the escrow agent is known-good, I don't see the problem.

Otherwise you might fly out and arrive to find out you got scooped by Johnny on the spot.

I agree, an overpriced boat been sitting at that price for weeks, low risk, but the really great bargains can go in hours.

[14murs14]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Then you'll miss out on the greatest bargains, gotta move fast.

As long as it's a "pending survey and sea trial" contract, and the escrow agent is known-good, I don't see the problem.

Otherwise you might fly out and arrive to find out you got scooped by Johnny on the spot.

I agree, an overpriced boat been sitting at that price for weeks, low risk, but the really great bargains can go in hours.

Every single broker in the U.S. is an under capitalized essentially mom and pop shop and a buyer has absolutely zero visibility into their finances. You give them a deposit and you become an unsecured creditor with all the rest maybe getting pennies on the dollar months or years from now in the bankruptcy process if they fold while holding your deposit. So it may be true to say if "the escrow agent is known good" but since there aren't any "known good" escrow agents at least among brokers who usually take on that role, it's a rather pointless observation in the real world. And as pointed out, even if they have insurance it is unlikely to cover even one deposit, let alone all they have at a given time - see "no visibility" comment above which refers to their insurance status as well.

[alex_sauvage]

[Can't blame the broker for this. You should have made an offer sight unseen based on satisfactory inspection, survey and sea trial, then the boat would have been under offer by you, would not have sold before you could get there.
If it was worth flying across the country to see you should have made sure it was not going to sell before you could see it. Maybe you were new to the boat buying process back then?[/QUOTE]

That's a lot of conflicting advices: one is saying: make an offer on the boat unseen; another one: don't ask any questions about the boat before you see it. So I cannot have any information except the drivel in the ad and have to give money to the stranger for the privilege to view the boat! We definetely need some alternative. I am surprised that Sailboat listing is not more popular

[Wood]

When I started calling brokers I was a serious buyer - but still unsure what, exactly, I wanted or would compromise on. I quickly learned, much to my frustration, that on a whole they are useless and know little or nothing about their listings.



I stopped asking them any questions and just scheduled an inspection and told them what I wanted to see, such as maintenance logs, etc.


As far s finding boats to look at you probably have found most resources. Manufacturer specific forums are valuable - not just for listings but also the let them know you're interested in something.


Searchtempest.com is also good for searching craigslist across many locations in one search.


If I had found a boat listed with a broker who was not helpful I was determined to write into my offer that the broker would reduce his commission by 50%. Let him present THAT to the seller!



I found my current boat in a very unremarkable ad on a forum. FSBO, no broker, The owner a very experienced boater and a good guy. He got a fair price - I got a good boat.


Good luck, and ignore the brokers.

[Red Sky]

I must have gotten lucky. With my current boat, the broker (and his wife) who handled the sale for the previous owner, have become very dear friends over the last 9 years. Honest and works his tail off. Anyone need a broker in the Freeport, Maine area, PM me.

[Shrew]

I can sympathize with people's frustration. However, that frustration is a result of not understanding what it looks like on the other end of the phone/E-mail.

A brokerage might have 100+ boats actively listed. I don't care who you are, you're not going to remember the details of 100 boats. Yes, sometimes details get lost in the listing. The broker usually relies on the seller to list the equipment and age. Sometimes details are simply overlooked. Mistakes happen

It would be difficult to the point of unreasonable to expect the broker to crawl around and perform a cursory survey of EVERY boat. This information is going to come out in the survey anyway.

The broker isn't sitting around ignoring your E-mail while he plays solitaire. He comes in in the morning and sits down to 150 E-mails for various boats. Then the calls start coming in. He does have to drive people around from boat to boat, meet with sellers who want to list, attend closings, attend sea trials. At the end of the day, there are 150 more E-mails.

Now, he starts sifting through a sea of "When was the rigging on that $35K boat replaced?" Unless the seller specified it when he submitted his info. on the vessel, the broker won't know. (This now requires a phone call (probably voicemail, then wait for a reply, then reply with you). Multiplied times 100 each day.

Let's say the broker does follow-up and gets you your information. The number of potential buyers who actually follow-up beyond that is probably less than 10%. So for 100 follow-ups, he might hear from 10 of those people again. OF those 10%, the number he actually meets is probably closer to less than 1 in 50. Of the 100 people he actually shows boats to, he probably sells 1 boat.

So now, you're following up on $35K and he also has $500K boats listed. Who is going to get the follow-up first?

Honestly ask yourself as a buyer.. how many calls and E-mails with brokers have you not followed-up on? Everyone talks about their "Short list" so how many times have you called to ask questions then never followed up again?

There are only so many hours in the day.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Shrew

...So now, you're following up on $35K and he also has $500K boats listed. Who is going to get the follow-up first?

Honestly ask yourself as a buyer.. how many calls and E-mails with brokers have you not followed-up on? Everyone talks about their "Short list" so how many times have you called to ask questions then never followed up again?

There are only so many hours in the day.

This is why I wish brokers wouldn’t list these lower-end boats. If you can’t service the sale adequately, then don’t take on the listing. Simple.

The problem is created when brokers take on these listings, but can’t devote the time necessary to service the sale. And when I say necessary, I mean necessary for the potential buyers. A $35k boat means little to a brokerage, but might be a fortune to the potential buyer. They have legitimate questions that need to be answered BEFORE they devote the resources to visit, and then pay for a surveyor and sea trial.

A broker acts as the gatekeeper to all the information a possible buyer needs, but since they can’t afford to devote the time to provide the information, they mostly become a barrier to the sale.

The answer is simple: Don’t take on any listing you can’t fully service.

[donahue62]

Originally Posted by rallyman1122

While I appreciate your opinion regarding the challenges brokers face, I take objection to your view on new sailors. There are more than a few people that have done just that.

And some of them post the challenges the face on YouTube. Not everyone is an old salt. And yes some people,any people have the dream and fail along the way.

But the eye rolling surveyor is not one I will be looking for when the day comes for my purchase.

Well said rallyman 1122

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is why I wish brokers wouldn’t list these lower-end boats. If you can’t service the sale adequately, then don’t take on the listing. Simple.

The problem is created when brokers take on these listings, but can’t devote the time necessary to service the sale. And when I say necessary, I mean necessary for the potential buyers. A $35k boat means little to a brokerage, but might be a fortune to the potential buyer. They have legitimate questions that need to be answered BEFORE they devote the resources to visit, and then pay for a surveyor and sea trial.

A broker acts as the gatekeeper to all the information a possible buyer needs, but since they can’t afford to devote the time to provide the information, they mostly become a barrier to the sale.

The answer is simple: Don’t take on any listing you can’t fully service.

It is like many sales jobs. Repeat business. Down the road resell the small boat and sell the larger one the satisfied buyer. A good salesman is long sighted,

[taxwizz]

I bought through a broker a few years ago. The price was $50,000 CDN. I viewed the boat on the hard and had it trucked to my marina. After launch I discovered that a couple of systems were not working, notwithstanding the clause "all systems in good working condition". I replaced the defective equipment and sent the vendor copies of the invoices. Then, after some communication on the matter, I merely asked for the correct name and address for service of the vendor and the agent. I received a cheque by return mail.


Ed Collis
ORION VII
Toronto

[Panama Red]

Originally Posted by jhkm12345

It's a wonderful feeling.... With the exception of one dam thing. Brokers.

I just can't understand why so many brokers have been so miserably communicative and not even remotely helpful.

frustrated beyond belief.

I did a 10 year search for my final boat. At one time I saw every Stevens 47 on the East Coast, with many different brokers, good to fair experience.

Finally, I hired my own boat broker. She showed me a couple of boats I was interested in. As she got to know me, she was honest and told me on one boat, "this boat is not for you!" She gave me a lot of good advice and help, both in person and on the phone. She averaged about 5-6 boat sales a month and was very busy, I took this into consideration and tried not to ask questions like how long is a Stevens 47? (check web for basic data and due diligence).

When I finally decided upon a boat, my broker and the sellers broker were super helpful. A year after buying the boat, the selling broker stopped by and we had a nice conversation. We mentioned we did not know how to use the oven. He came aboard and spent 30 minutes showing us how to start it and properly use it.

I had two outstanding brokers working for me. I bought what I thought was a great boat for the price, and I do not have any regrets a year later.

Did I luck out with the brokers? No, when I decided to buy, I did as much research on the brokers as I did on the boat. I consider both brokers friends, and a friend would never leave another friend hanging out to dry.

From a brokers point of view, representing a boat is a full time job, no vacation, no sick leave, always have the cell phone on regardless of what else is happening. And when I bought my boat it had only been on the market for 3-4 years! He was so glad to sell it, just to be done with it.

I went into the boat buying process knowing many of the pitfalls that have been voiced, I fully expected a horrible experience. Hiring a broker with 30+ years of experience selling boats really made the experience enjoyable.

BTW I have talked to previous clients of both brokers, and they had nothing but praise for both brokers! Good brokers are out there.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Cadence

It is like many sales jobs. Repeat business. Down the road resell the small boat and sell the larger one the satisfied buyer. A good salesman is long sighted,

This would be true if people came away pleased with the transaction. But as we’re hearing here, there are few happy stories that come of all this.

Low-end boats are given the time they deserve by the brokers (i.e. not much), which means poor service to the sale. I can’t imaging there are many happy sellers, and there are even fewer happy potential buyers who might one day also become sellers.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by 14murs14

One other thing I discovered is that it's often cheaper to pay a surveyor to do a 1 hour "walk through" of a promising boat with lots of pictures, then it is to fly out and look yourself, especially if it's just for one boat. They'll take all the unflattering pictures a broker listing won't have, they'll be as likely to catch anything serious as you would be on an initial walk-through, if not more so, and if the boat sells unexpectedly it generally costs little or nothing to cancel the visit vice the non-refundable airfare. I was comfortable enough doing this that I made an offer based on this visit alone for my current boat which was in Martinique while I was in Annapolis. With an accepted offer I was able to fly down a couple weeks later and do my own inspection along with a full survey. Plus I knew the quality of the surveyors work from the initial inspection, so that was helpful as well.

+1

Plus hiring someone makes you far more credible, few brokers will ignore you if you do.